DLC Model Discussion

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  • I do not own Civ5, but I like the current DLC model.

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I have double feelings about the DLC model. It offers both positive and negative aspects and I'm not really sure if I prefer it over the 'old' game+expansion method. There certainly are possibilities but I wonder if the industry will use them.

The good

What I really like is that it keeps you engaged. With a new civ, scenario, mappack and whatnot it really gives a few games that feeling again when you first start playing. The feeling that new contents gives me is really what I appreciate, although this is of course also due to the far-stretching patches we've seen.

Which brings me to my second point. The only way to keep selling DLC is to keep players playing. This is positive as it means the developer must have a game that allows long-term engagement for players. In the last decade we've seen games become more commercial and also a lot shorter, much less play-hours per game. Games using the DLC-system are turning this trend around which is much needed in my opinion. I believe the patches would not have been as extensive if not for the prospect of DLC income.

Other positive factors are that developers are able to suit to players' needs better since they will receive much feedback. Also, it makes pirating a lot harder since pirates will have to crack every DLC and illegal players will need to look for it and download it every time again.

The bad

As for negative factors, one is obviously cost. As pointed out above DLC is pretty expensive. This is logical of course (buying twenty separate ice-cream cones is much more expensive than buying a 2 liter pack). But it still is expensive. If I would right now get the deal to buy all DLC for 40 bucks I certainly wouldn't do it, even though I payed more by getting every DLC separately.

Second I'm concerned about expansions. I believe Civ V will certainly have expansions but in the future expansions might stop completely to be replaced by alot of smaller DLC packages. I suppose this is not necessarily bad but I personally really like expansions. They feel like playing an entirely new game instead of a slightly changed one.

Conclusion

All in all I can't say I'm for or against it. If DLC becomes more common and will turn around the trend of fewer gameplay-hours per game that would be a very good thing. On the other hand, would I like games that get many small and medium additions overtime instead of a single huge expansion? It sure gives you the option to choose, to mix & match your game as you like. But will it be as affordable?

Personally I feel DLC could be a step in the right direction. But still developers are sitting in their office thinking about what the consumers want. The internet is ready for a better system. The current level of communication allows much more feedback and participation from the community than currently is the case. I see developers and modders working more closely together to create new content and to improve overall game quality. The tools are here for a close collaboration with the online community, hopefully the industry will dare to step off their old methods and embrace the possibilities the technology of today and tomorrow brings us.
 
DLC model is corrupt. Especially with Civ5. How dare they release that type of crap for an unfinished game that is not functioning properly a year after its release?!
Did you hear about a thing called consequences? Here are some of them:
1) No modding. Shogun 2, BF3, Civ5(almost). These games are DLC-heavy games. Modders can create quality content but developers and publishers don't want it.
2) Games will be cut in pieces. A portion of game is cut from the final build and will be later sold for 5-10$. Nothing will stop them from releasing an unfinished game for 60$ and then just add that cut content for an additional 60$. Do you think it's good and we should live with it?
3) Low-end content for money. 3 wonders + poorly made scenario for 5$. Are they out of their <snip> mind?
4) Patches for money in the near future. If the gaming community will buy everything that developers/publishers are giving them - they will buy patches too. It's just a matter of time.

Do you really want all of that?

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Is it the DLC model, or the pricing thereof that people have problems with, though?

You can certainly argue that one feeds the other: DLC allows publishers to release chunks of content for impulse-buy prices that add up over time to a greater value than most people would be prepared to pay for it were it to come all at once.

On the other hand, DLC runs the gamut from absolutely free to ridiculously overpriced. Left 4 Dead 1 & 2 got new campaigns for no money, whereas a Railworks 2 enthusiast can purchase a single new train model (albeit one with 15 different liveries!) and three scenarios for £12.99. It's up to publishers to decide the pricing.

I personally think Civ V DLC falls somewhere in the middle. Compared to what we're used to from Civ IV, it's expensive. However, I don't think it's so overpriced that I'm not willing to pay it for content I want.

It could be Civ V is some people's only experience of DLC, and that is colouring their opinions. It's been around for quite a while now, though, and there's both good and bad examples out there. I don't hold with slippery-slope end-of-the-industry clarion calls.

In answer to the poll, the DLC model I have no problem with, and the pricing I'm prepared to tolerate, within reason.
 
Why do people keep saying that they are selling parts of the game that have been "cut" from the release version?

Are you actually implying that all these civilizations would have been in the original release if not for the fact that they planned to make DLC?
 
DLC model is corrupt. Especially with Civ5. How dare they release that type of crap for an unfinished game that is not functioning properly a year after its release?!
Did you hear about a thing called consequences? Here are some of them:
1) No modding. Shogun 2, BF3, Civ5(almost). These games are DLC-heavy games. Modders can create quality content but developers and publishers don't want it.
2) Games will be cut in pieces. A portion of game is cut from the final build and will be later sold for 5-10$. Nothing will stop them from releasing an unfinished game for 60$ and then just add that cut content for an additional 60$. Do you think it's good and we should live with it?
3) Low-end content for money. 3 wonders + poorly made scenario for 5$. Are they out of their f------ mind?
4) Patches for money in the near future. If the gaming community will buy everything that developers/publishers are giving them - they will buy patches too. It's just a matter of time.

Do you really want all of that?

1) and 2) are valid concerns, and I hope the source code for Civ V is released to allow significant modding. 2) in particular can be argued to have occurred with The Sims 3: many reviewers found the content of the base package severely lacking, thanks to the online store. I don't think it applies to Civ V, though.

Oh, it certainly has its problems, and it was unfinished when it was released. But I don't think it's fair to argue that the game was sold without content in the same way The Sims 3 was. It shipped with 18 civs, just like Civilization IV, and the features of its predecessor it lacked, like religion and espionage, were I would say omitted as a conscious design decision rather than a cynical attempt to save them for a future expansion. If they will return in the future, I would imagine they would be expanded such as those in Beyond the Sword.

The DLC may have been in development before release. That is irrelevant-- it was never promised or advertised as part of the basic package. As long as the released product has sufficient content (which I believe Civ V did), it's not a problem.

3) Is naturally your opinion, and 4) is exaggerated conjecture. Please give an example of any developer charging for a patch, or demonstrating any plans to.
 
DLC model is corrupt. Especially with Civ5. How dare they release that type of crap for an unfinished game that is not functioning properly a year after its release?!
Your argument would hold true if they wouldn't release patches, but there have been 5?6? patches up until know, so there's no 'corruption'.
If the game is being fixed enough is a different discussion altogether and doesn't have anything to do with the DLC-discussion.
1) No modding. Shogun 2, BF3, Civ5(almost). These games are DLC-heavy games. Modders can create quality content but developers and publishers don't want it.
Eh? I've seen quite a few good mods for Civ 5? I don't get it?
2) Games will be cut in pieces. A portion of game is cut from the final build and will be later sold for 5-10$. Nothing will stop them from releasing an unfinished game for 60$ and then just add that cut content for an additional 60$. Do you think it's good and we should live with it?
The same argument can be made against expansions and such. And if it's true no-one knows. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
3) Low-end content for money. 3 wonders + poorly made scenario for 5$. Are they out of their f------ mind?
People pay what they want to pay. I wouldn't pay $5 for it either, but combined with Korea it's only $2,50. And on a sale-day (with Korea) it'd be $1,25. Is that more like it?
And on the other hand we got a DLC with a civ and scenario for $0,00, so the argument that DLC = no value for money doesn't always ring true.

By the way, I found the scenario with WOTAW actually really good.
4) Patches for money in the near future. If the gaming community will buy everything that developers/publishers are giving them - they will buy patches too. It's just a matter of time.
This hasn't been the case (as far as I know, if it has please tell me :) ), in any game, so this is merely FUD.
 
This is how I see it, every two or three months I get a new civ, maybe 2, and scenario for 5 to 7 bucks. This adds more to the game and will keep me occupied and happy for hours, I already have an additional 10 hours from Korea. The patches are free and quick and they add not only fixes but new buildings (aquaducts and Stone Mason) and resources(stone). In my opinion it works fine. Now what annoys me is people saying Civ 5 is not "complete". I think its great, don't try to sway my opinion. What I have to ask is "Was civ4 perfect when it came out?"

And with the leaderheads from civ4, compare them to the leaderheads of Civ5. How much money do you think it take to make a single Civ5 leaderhead, hmm. You have to pay people to do research on the leader and make a realistic character, then you have to pay someone to write the sentences for the leader and then pay a voice actor. Then make a huge orchastra composition for peace and war, more money to make. While they work months on a leader, in Civ4 they could make them like nothing, members from the forums have made great ones. So when you think about the cost of DLC think not "Its a ripp off" think how much it cost them to make it
 
Your argument would hold true if they wouldn't release patches, but there have been 5?6? patches up until know, so there's no 'corruption'.
Five or six patches is way too much. It is not a good thing that it was even necessary for there to be this much.
If the game is being fixed enough is a different discussion altogether and doesn't have anything to do with the DLC-discussion.
Yes it is related. He implying that the attitude of video game developers has changed altogether due to the fact that patches and DLC can so easily be accessed. Developers would rather release the game quickly, rake in the profits, patch it up, and sell DLC.
Eh? I've seen quite a few good mods for Civ 5? I don't get it?
Source code, source code, source code
The same argument can be made against expansions and such. And if it's true no-one knows. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
No it can't. The amount of content that comes with the typical expansion pack is too great and too numerous for the same to be said there.

People pay what they want to pay. I wouldn't pay $5 for it either, but combined with Korea it's only $2,50. And on a sale-day (with Korea) it'd be $1,25. Is that more like it?
If you are going to bring up the price when it is on sale than you must do the same for everything else. What you do to one side you do to the other. Therefore, the DLC is still a ripoff even when on sale, when compared to an expansion pack that is also on sale.
And on the other hand we got a DLC with a civ and scenario for $0,00, so the argument that DLC = no value for money doesn't always ring true.
That was one single DLC. That doesn't change the fact that the price of every DLC is still $50 combined (the same price of Civ V brand new). Just because they did the right thing once, doesn't mean they get to do the wrong thing more often.
 
Good point...

...though they didn't do much research on Ragusa evidently! Though that's not really anything to do with the DLC. They did correct their error in fairness too.
 
This is how I see it, every two or three months I get a new civ, maybe 2, and scenario for 5 to 7 bucks. This adds more to the game and will keep me occupied and happy for hours, I already have an additional 10 hours from Korea.
You are really saying something about the game if it takes the constant production of new civs just to keep you interested enough to play it.
The patches are free and quick and they add not only fixes but new buildings (aquaducts and Stone Mason) and resources(stone).
:wallbash: Here we go again with people thanking the developers for "free" patches!
In my opinion it works fine. Now what annoys me is people saying Civ 5 is not "complete". I think its great, don't try to sway my opinion.
1.) If the game we "complete" than how come there have been so many patches?
2.)What is the point of arguing if not to sway peoples opinions? Correct me if I am wrong, but this thread was started for the sould purpose of arguing over DLC.
What I have to ask is "Was civ4 perfect when it came out?"
No, but it was a lot better off than civ v when it first came out. And it didn't take 6 gazillion patches to fix the problems it had. Anyway, this tread isn't for arguing over which of the two is better. Don't blame me, you brought it up. I like the game too, what I don't like is DLC.



And with the leaderheads from civ4, compare them to the leaderheads of Civ5. How much money do you think it take to make a single Civ5 leaderhead, hmm. You have to pay people to do research on the leader and make a realistic character, then you have to pay someone to write the sentences for the leader and then pay a voice actor. Then make a huge orchastra composition for peace and war, more money to make. While they work months on a leader, in Civ4 they could make them like nothing, members from the forums have made great ones. So when you think about the cost of DLC think not "Its a ripp off" think how much it cost them to make it
I have to complement you. For once someone actually brought up a valid point as to why the DLC cost too much. But, I still don't buy it.
Go to this thread and you can see how much effort they put into the game. :lol:

They obviously didn't do much research into the AI's personalities (eg, I just got nuked by Gandhi)!

When it comes to animating the leaders most of it is up to the designers imaginations. And it doesn't take hours of digging though ancient manuscripts to figure out what George Washington looked like (it's called Google images and the developers are well aware of its existence)

Many leaders in the civilization series have had customized music, yet they weren't expensive.

You also brought up a good point with mods. The people who make the mods do lots of research, get music, and design leader heads, but the mods are free.
 
...so you're saying that the leader heads are easy to make, or are you just dodging the question here?

I'm sure that all the modders make such great leader screens and obviously keep an orchestra in their back yard to make the music.
 
To those who have been quoting Thoughtful Thug's post which claimed a price of $99.39 (i.e. 49.39 for the DLC), is there any chance you could clarify that it's actually about $41.90? I noticed someone above compared buying a meal at McDonalds to buying the parts of that meal separately. The price of 49.39 is like buying the whole meal in individual parts ignoring that you can get it cheaper as a bundle.

Someone who's bought every DLC so far for full price (at US prices) will generally have paid about $41.90, not 49.39. Note that includes $10 for the four map packs (discounted from $12 if purchased in a bundle) which personally I find hard to believe many people would buy at full price.

I appreciate the argument that DLC is expensive. It sure is, at about 41.90 so far. But at least try to avoid exaggerating the real fact to suit whatever argument it is you're putting forward.
 
Hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good argument!

How dare they charge us for their hard work!

How dare they release new civs to keep us interested whilst we wait for say... An expansion, or something interesting to happen in our own lives!

They should just do what they used to. Announce the expansion and then we can have a free for all about how such and such a civilization is better than such and such. Of course the discussion would collapse into something about Hitler, but hey! Then after waiting all those months we get it and its pretty dire in truth with little improvement on the base game. Then the next year it can happen all over again and we can finally get something worthwhile.

Seriously though, as people say if you wait 6 months odd you can get all the DLC for a slashed price, in fact I think someone quoted a figure around or less than the expansions cost per civ. Not bad really. At the end of the day I'd probably have paid more for those expansions if they came a bit quicker, but that's because I'm extremely impatient and don't really waste my money on many other games but civ.
 
...so you're saying that the leader heads are easy to make, or are you just dodging the question here?
I didn't say they are easy, I said modders can do it yet the content remains free. And I'm not sure what the question I am dodging is. Are you just saying "stop dodging the question" because it sounds good? I'm pretty sure I responded rather thoroughly.

I'm sure that all the modders make such great leader screens
Yes modders do make great leader screens. Especially for civ iv.

and obviously keep an orchestra in their back yard to make the music.
In the past, civilizations have never been so expensive yet the developers have used custom music for them. With this said, the civs should not be as expensive as they are. Also the developers have taken preexisting music that an independent artist created. Modders are capable of taking preexisting music and adding it to leader heads as well. And even if a modder did get a bloody orchestra, they still wouldn't charge.
 
I didn't say they are easy, I said modders can do it yet the content remains free. And I'm not sure what the question I am dodging is. Are you just saying "stop dodging the question" because it sounds good? I'm pretty sure I responded rather thoroughly.




In the past, civilizations have never been so expensive yet the developers have used custom music for them. With this said, the civs should not be as expensive as they are. Also the developers have taken preexisting music that an independent artist created. Modders are capable of taking preexisting music and adding it to leader heads as well. And even if a modder did get a bloody orchestra, they still wouldn't charge.

To be honest I've never seen a modder's leader head from Civ IV that's upto the standard of the official ones, most of them are just copies with some textures changed. That's not knocking the work, but its a whole other kettle of fish. In any case a lot more work goes into a Civ V civilizations than any modder around here could muster on their own and in fact its a lot more work than Civ IV leaders by far.
 
To those who have been quoting Thoughtful Thug's post which claimed a price of $99.39 (i.e. 49.39 for the DLC), is there any chance you could clarify that it's actually about $41.90? I noticed someone above compared buying a meal at McDonalds to buying the parts of that meal separately. The price of 49.39 is like buying the whole meal in individual parts ignoring that you can get it cheaper as a bundle.

Someone who's bought every DLC so far for full price (at US prices) will generally have paid about $41.90, not 49.39. Note that includes $10 for the four map packs (discounted from $12 if purchased in a bundle) which personally I find hard to believe many people would buy at full price.

I appreciate the argument that DLC is expensive. It sure is, at about 41.90 so far. But at least try to avoid exaggerating the real fact to suit whatever argument it is you're putting forward.
I appreciate how you, yourself exluded the price of something just because you think no one would buy it. And it is ridiculous that people keep allowing too many independant variables to get in they way so they can say it is cheaper than it really is. Everything goes on sale, including regular expansion packs. If you are going to say that the DLC is one sale than you should note that the regular game goes on sale along with everything else under the sun. Therefore, the DLC is still too expensive.

And that's assuming someone would actually pay for the four map pack (the four map thing is actually the only DLC I won't defend for this game). But in any case, a -50% sale on Steam and the not-too-common -66%/-75% sales is when a lot of people who don't buy the DLC right away buy them.

Wait for a bundle sale and you can probably get the four maps and 4-6 civilizations+scenarios for about $20.
See above argument and one that I previously posted on this same thread.

Hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good argument!

How dare they charge us for their hard work!
You call it hard work! It doesn't matter how hard they worked on it! That still doesn't justify them in charging us more than the product is worth.

How dare they release new civs to keep us interested whilst we wait for say... An expansion, or something interesting to happen in our own lives!
How dare the release a video game that is so flawed that it can't even keep it's fans interested enough to play the game without having to download a new civ every two months!
They should just do what they used to. Announce the expansion and then we can have a free for all about how such and such a civilization is better than such and such. Of course the discussion would collapse into something about Hitler, but hey! Then after waiting all those months we get it and its pretty dire in truth with little improvement on the base game. Then the next year it can happen all over again and we can finally get something worthwhile.
This is really an irrelevant heap of mumbo jumbo. Sure, declare expansion pacts bad simply because you think people will argue and talk about Hitler!

Seriously though, as people say if you wait 6 months odd you can get all the DLC for a slashed price, in fact I think someone quoted a figure around or less than the expansions cost per civ. Not bad really. At the end of the day I'd probably have paid more for those expansions if they came a bit quicker, but that's because I'm extremely impatient and don't really waste my money on many other games but civ.
Once again, you cannot justify the high prices of DLC just because they occasionally go on sale. In a few years the whole game will be thrown into one compilation called "Civilization V: Golden Edition". When you take into account that regular expansions also go on sale, DLC remains still yet, a ripoff.
 
The lack of 3D leaderheads in the Civ5 Modding Section disagrees rather loudly with what you're saying.



This goes back to the "if you can't dig it, don't buy it" idea.
That is the developer's fault for their lack of modding tools.

And hopefully for the last time: It is not as simple as "don't like it, don't buy it". The purchases DLC lover make effects everyone else in a rather negative way. There is no reason for Firaxis to do it any other way when the DLC model allows them to make 10x more money. This leaves me, and anyone else who doesn't want the gaming industry to become overpriced and sleazy, with no other options. And that is the way they intend it to be.

To be honest I've never seen a modder's leader head from Civ IV that's upto the standard of the official ones, most of them are just copies with some textures changed. That's not knocking the work, but its a whole other kettle of fish. In any case a lot more work goes into a Civ V civilizations than any modder around here could muster on their own and in fact its a lot more work than Civ IV leaders by far.
What? Just because they have 3-D graphics. Do I have to explain to you how insignificant 3-D graphics are?
 
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