Reform of CFC Public Discussion of Moderator Action Rules

Do you support a thread in Site Feedback to discuss or appeal CFC moderator actions?


  • Total voters
    78

Thlayli

Le Pétit Prince
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Jun 2, 2005
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Public Discussion of Moderator Action, often truncated to the acronym PDMA, is a longstanding controversial topic in the CFC forum. Largely speaking, it is interpreted to mean that discussion of actions that the CFC staff take in enforcing the forum rules is not allowed.

In practice, it is a sporadically enforced policy which really only comes into play when moderator actions are challenged or opposed by members of the community. What PDMA really means is "critiques of moderator actions are not allowed". This amounts to a policy of censorship that does not accord with other elements of the CFC rules, which encourage open, free, and fair discussion of just about any topic.

If forum members are expressing their disagreement with moderator actions in a civil and polite fashion, this does not violate any other CFC rules, nor does it create a serious disturbance for the moderation staff. I believe that this is an unfair and unjust policy that contributes to a common opinion in the CFC forums that the moderation staff is elitist, resistant to criticism, and overly concerned with protecting their self-image. This obsession with suppressing criticism has, unsurprisingly, had the opposite effect.

Reforming this policy is driven from a desire to help CFC and to help the moderation staff, not challenge its authority or otherwise harm it. It is designed to alter a policy of favoritism whereby discussion of moderator actions that the moderators approve of is tacitly allowed, while discussion that moderators feel overly worried or threatened by, while not breaking CFC rules in any other way, is banned.

This is an English-language speaking forum hosted in the Western world, and as such, free discussion and discourse without restriction are values which are prized by our societies and our cultures. This free discourse should extend to community interactions with the moderation staff. In large part, CFC rules are construed to be in accordance with the Anglo-American legal canon, and they ban activities which, if carried out in the public square, would be considered illegal, such as threatening and violent language.

If we are to consider that CFC rules, as most internet forum rules, are based around our Western legal traditions, we must consider that any suppression of freedom of speech is a violation of that legal tradition, as long as the speech is not interpreted as incitement to violence or otherwise an illegal breach of public safety. Civil criticism of the staff for taking actions that one disagrees with is not in any way a violation of the Western legal canon, and as such suppressing it has no place in our forum rules.

It is understandable that our moderation staff wishes to avoid being insulted or other wise denigrated in the course of doing their jobs. However, the intent of this policy is not to legalize insults or coarse language. The intent of this policy is to open the discourse to criticism of moderator action leveled in a polite way.

Since, in practice, PDMA is allowed when dissent at moderator policies rises to a sufficient level, the presence of ad hoc exceptions to the rules should, I argue, be extended to allow a specific grievance thread where complainants can openly discuss issues in dialogue with their fellow CFC members and moderators.

Allowing such a space would certainly improve relations between CFC staff and certain estranged elements of the community which feel that the staff often dismiss, ignore, or suppress their concerns. The purpose of this poll is to ask whether or not the community approves of the creation of a grievance thread in which discussion and appeal of moderator actions can take place. Ultimately, while CFC moderators are not chosen by the community, they remain accountable to it, and the rules which apply to us should also apply to them. I cannot simply eliminate the posts of someone who disagrees with me on an issue, or with something I did or said. I believe moderators should also be held to this standard.

Please voice your opinions on the matter.
 
"Western legal canon" indeed. I am personally indifferent to how this non-issue plays out, but I have to comment on that.

It's interesting how many people assume they’re entitled to "free speech" when it comes to their participation in online communities, such as forums, blogs, Facebook, Twitter, and so on. After all, in the US and many other countries, free speech is (supposedly) a protected right (although there are numerous legal limitations on free speech (criminal behavior, slander/libel, copyright laws, Patriot Act, etc), and some countries, such as China, restrict free speech more than others). Many of us live in the US, and we Americans are accustomed to a wide latitude when it comes to free speech, so it isn't surprising that this sense of entitlement to free speech should be carried onto the Internet.

However, free speech protection (such as it is) applies only to governmental restrictions on speech and doesn't extend to restrictions imposed by private businesses (or private persons, for that matter). You may have the right to say what you like on a public street corner, among a group of protesters gathered at the White House fence, or in some other public place, but not so in private places (homes, private businesses, newspapers, and, yes, privately owned internet forums). In those contexts, your right to free speech is subject to the discretion of the owner of that private place. CFC is just such a private place. It is privately owned and does not "belong" to its community of users (however emotionally invested they may be in the site and its success).

It is also perfectly legal for you to enter into a contract that restricts your right to free speech. The most obvious example is a formal confidentiality or non-disclosure agreement, but internet site terms of use are contracts that limit the free speech "rights" of billions of users -- take a look at your Facebook and Twitter terms of use if you don't believe me. Such a contract exists at CFC and it currently includes restrictions on PDMA.

So, debate away, but please do so without unfounded appeals to legal "norms" or misleading assertions of entitlement.
 
That is true, of course, the moderation staff isn't really the "owners" either, they're private volunteers who don't have equity in this institution. They are one of us, from among us. We're all just subjectively interpreting things that were put in place years ago and ossified due to institutional inertia. In that sense monopoly of rule interpretation doesn't "belong" to the moderation staff either.

I wouldn't mind Thunderfall making his opinions known, but the godhead has retreated into the clouds and has not been seen for years. :p
 
Personally I'm in favour of having some more qualifications for choosing moderators so a teenager with an edgy name and a "2dark4u" avatar with no sense of humour don't get chosen in the first place. Although I guess that has been some years now.
 
Thunderfall was the one who banned PDMA years ago (it was allowed in Site Feedback at that time), and required appeals to go private, back when he was the only one hearing appeals.
Prior to that it had been banned from the other sub forums as not being on topic in them, before the name and then acronym had been coined.
 
Thunderfall was the one who banned PDMA years ago (it was allowed in Site Feedback at that time), and required appeals to go private, back when he was the only one hearing appeals.
Prior to that it had been banned from the other sub forums as not being on topic in them, before the name and then acronym had been coined.

That would be understandable if you were the only one hearing appeals, and constantly deluged with it. However, we're now a more mature community which is better equipped to handle this kind of discussion.

There are plenty of other sites on the internet that allow this kind of behavior and don't collapse into anarchy and barbarism. I, personally, am proud enough of CFC's community to think that we're just as good as those other sites.

You might disagree, but I have the highest opinion of our community's capacity to handle this responsibility.
 
There are plenty of other sites on the internet that allow this kind of behavior and don't collapse into anarchy and barbarism. I, personally, am proud enough of CFC's community to think that we're just as good as those other sites..
We were looking at the system at the Total War forums as a somewhat successful model.
The staff discussion here a few months ago presented a lot of very different ideas, pro and con, but petered out with no two opinions being very close to each other, and the chief protagonist who might have got some others welded together over time, dropped it for real life.
 
Again the whole thing?

If we are to consider that CFC rules, as most internet forum rules, are based around our Western legal traditions, we must consider that any suppression of freedom of speech is a violation of that legal tradition, as long as the speech is not interpreted as incitement to violence or otherwise an illegal breach of public safety. Civil criticism of the staff for taking actions that one disagrees with is not in any way a violation of the Western legal canon, and as such suppressing it has no place in our forum rules.



via http://www.xkcd.com.

EDIT: Legal things:
That comic is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 2.5 License. Changes have been made for the autocensor here.
 

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The question should be: Why does PDMA exist other than to protect abusive staff?
 
Thunderfall found it to useless and disruptive. Mainly whining, seconded by baseless accusations of bias, thirded by flaming and abuse, forthed by useless posturing, with only a smattering of useful discourse. Waste of time.
 
Thunderfall found it to useless and disruptive. Mainly whining, seconded by baseless accusations of bias, thirded by flaming and abuse, forthed by useless posturing, with only a smattering of useful discourse. Waste of time.


And replaced it with an intentionally obfuscated system that encourages users to accept abuse and refrain from appealing wrongful infractions.
 
I might support an appeal thread if there's a penalty if you lose the appeal.
 
That would just even further discourage users, making worse the problem Owen stated above, wouldn't it?
 
I don't think anyone's claiming a legal right to free speech in a forum. I think they're pointing out that free and open discussion -- particularly with regard to moderation -- leads to a better community atmosphere. Frankly, you run this forum for the members, so while the forum doesn't belong to them in any sort of legal sense, you certainly ought to treat them more like shareholders and less like a mob.
 
What I find ridiculous is that it's apparently not allowed to discuss whether or not a particular user has been banned, and I can't for the life of me understand why. Especially since it's not always clear.
 
Again, I really do not see why it cannot even be tried. If it's truly as disruptive and chaotic as you say, then you'll have a case study to point to about how you were right all along and we're an ungovernable mob.

It costs the moderators virtually nothing to try an appeal thread in a limited sense. It wouldn't cost you much more time than you already spend looking at Site Feedback threads.
 
PDMA is a difficult topic even for the staff, and as Lefty said above, forging a consensus among staff has proven to be difficult. The seemingly endless discussions of the topic wear some people down just as they invigorate others. The burden of any attempted solution will fall most heavily on the moderation staff and since we are all volunteers, we need a strong consensus to go down that path. And so, for now, nothing changes except our post count. :)
 
It's really not that heavy of a burden. I already pointed out that the same amount of work, or perhaps more, goes into responding to PM appeals.

In fact, I'd actually argue the burden of repeatedly fighting against it is higher than just TRYING to fix the problem. Right now, the institutional resistance to change is starting to look like fear of the membership, and that is...problematic for the leadership.
 
It's really not that heavy of a burden. I already pointed out that the same amount of work, or perhaps more, goes into responding to PM appeals.
I have been part of many appeals and I would disagree with this.

In fact, I'd actually argue the burden of repeatedly fighting against it is higher than just TRYING to fix the problem.
I would probably agree with this.
 
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