Getting rid of bad habits on King+

I recently moved to King difficulty, as Prince has become an obvious AI stomp. Now there finally are signs of competition from AI, and I must actually think on what I am doing in early game. While I did win a couple of games, there are some bad habits that hinder my performance.

First of all, I`m too location-dependent. A start with neighbors that have obstructed access to your lands is an easy one, but starting with AI on an open terrain is a free DoW. While I don't have problems with defending my cities, a sudden switch to all-out military production is a hit to the initially planned city development.

Secondly, my victories were achieved as Egypt, which doesn't help with wonder addiction at all. I already said goodbye to GL, as I noticed that even with it I am still behind in tech by early-mid. It is the first spy that helps me catch up while my cities grow and reach a strong science output, eventually making me the tech leader. But other wonders like ToA/HG and the Medieval-Renaissance ones seem too crucial to miss, especially for Cultural Victory: they usually end up in the hands of one runaway AI instead of being spread among all civs, and that's what makes me compete for them - to make sure the runaway doesn't snowball out of control.

So my question is what are the optimal things to do in early-mid game on standard speed King (and Emperor), aside from "4-city Tradition NC asap"? I am mostly interested in the production order, since that's where most of my struggle comes from: building units means giving up on buildings and wonders, focusing on buildings means delaying army and workers (don't think worker-stealing is a thing on King), and wonder-whoring is just too risky when your neighbors covet your lands.

Thanks!

P.S. Early-mid wonders that I usually go for:
GL (not anymore)
ToA/HG
Parthenon
Oracle
Borobudur/Hagia Sofia (if found a religion or need faith for future GP purchases)
Forbidden Palace (I always feel I need that early control of WC)
Leaning Tower
Sistine Chapel/Alhambra (for culture output - as an enhancer of Parthenon, Oracle and maybe pantheon)
Chichen Itza/Notre Dame (or at least make sure they're not in the hands of a runaway)

Emperor is not any different from Prince (AI still completely pushovers...)
Suggestion for the brainless: Stonehenge + divine inspiration + holy warriors + Hagia Sophia. This works OK on emperor and sometimes on immortal. You have no reason to say goodbye to GL on just emperor though... (but make sure you know what you're doing, chopping trees, stealing workers and whatnot)

Then wonderwhore all you want but make sure you grow (it makes sense, the bigger your capitol, the more hammers it can put out); holy warriors is enough to not invest a single hammer in military all game.

On Immortal, I use to have Oracle, Hagia and Sistine. Nothing else is very important.

In early game, you have to have NC up soon (before T100). Keep an eye on your growth. A capital with size under 12 at T100 is an hard game later.
Workers : many and fast. Steal, rush-buy. Never work an unimproved tile in a city.

My basic build order :
Capital : Scout (or Pathfinder) - Monument - Scout (unique UU if Polynesia, Aztecs, Shoshones, etc) - Shrine - Granary - Settlers (2 or 3, depend of policies, location, civ and VC) - Archer*2 (if necessary) Caravan (many times 2, sailing is need) - Archers*2 - Water Mill - Library - something waiting Philo - NC - Oracle - Settlers (if need) - Writer's guild - Hagia (if need) - National Epic - University (if I haven't enough cash).

Cities : Monument (if I open liberty) - Granary (if I didn't reach Writing) - Library - Archer or CB - Granary/Shrine - Water Mill/Wall - Archer/University - Artist's guild (if capital is low on food).

With 4 to 6 archers, you'll be easy for CSquests, pre T100 war with warmonger/backstabber AI.
Two first caravans are for 2nd and 3rd cities, to help to reach pop 5 faster. After they are for 4th city and capital, or AI if I need cash.
A caravan/ship is equivalent to HG, cheaper. Instead ToA take sword to plowshares beliefs.

On king you'll be tech leader with NC. On emperor, somewhere between CS/Religion and Education with correct growth.

Aside Tradition 4 NC, mix liberty-tradition is interesting for SV or Domination.

After finally getting a Science Victory on King difficulty I'm starting to realize that there are Wonders you simply aren't able to have/get with King+. As you mentioned playing at the lower levels you're very accustom to getting what may be perceived as great Wonders or simply the ability to get the wonders you want without the AI beating you to them.

It took me 8 to 9 games to finally get a Science victory at King difficulty (it took three games to get a Dip Victory). What I learned was, less is more. I've not played beyond King, but I can imagine Wonder management and which ones you'd want will require a lot more focus and tech management.

We can get spoiled playing at the lower difficulties.

I'm also starting to play on King level and it's a big difference from Prince, especially the wonders and getting over the bad habits.

I'm still struggling.

Apparently we must be playing different games on KING (and even emperor) there is no wonder that is impossible to get if you really want it. I don't even remember how King AI is different from Prince since they don't seem to grow at all (no food bonus perhaps)

kb27787 said:

Apparently we must be playing different games on KING (and even emperor) there is no wonder that is impossible to get if you really want it. I don't even remember how King AI is different from Prince since they don't seem to grow at all (no food bonus perhaps)

Click to expand...

Pretty much this. Though on Emp I remember being beaten to early wonders a couple of times. Generally, though, on King any city with decent production should be able to comfortably outproduce the AI to any wonder

I guess some people are used to getting most of the early wonders, not just one or two they really want. I didn't have any problems at King because I usually only wanted one of the early wonders, and could get that rather reliably.

Now, Emperor is different. There, you start thinking hard about even trying because if the AI wants a specific ancient or classical wonder, it's going to get it unless you have an overpowered starting position and a lot of luck with the ruins. Things only gradually change later.

A few things to get rid of bad habits on King+:
- Learn to live with the idea that you will be behind the AI for the early part of the game. It's normal.
- Don't build any wonders in your first few games. Later on you can work out which wonders are really worth it. To help with this, don't play Egypt, and reroll if you get Marble (because in both cases you would want to build wonders).
- Don't beeline techs. In the first few games, if you want to make things easy, just pick the tech with the lowest beaker requirements. Later on, you can make a trade off between the benefits you get from a tech and its costs. Research will be cheaper for techs that other civs you have met know already.
- Learn to benefit from the AI. The AI grows faster at higher levels, so trade routes, research agreements, selling resources, etc., are more valuable.
- Play the map/civ, don't start the game with a plan on how you want to win.

Ditching GL is a great idea for overall skill improvement. Building workers, settlers, granary, shrine etc.. will benefit you more than early wonders.

Try to get up at least four cities then go straight for your NC. If you can't get four cities because another civ is in the way then make as many cities as you can, then NC.

After you have your NC you may choose to do anything you want without fear of falling behind in tech. Whether it be to build an army and kill some one or spam wonders.

Also, be sure to get food caravans running as soon as possible. Making your cities grow as fast as you can get the happiness up is a very good idea.

A couple suggestions

1) Ditch the Parthenon - It really is terrible - 250 hammers for 6 culture & 2 tourism is a huge waste
2) The science boost from Great Library is not essential and can be replaced by trade routes

So try and get your settlers out rather than always relying on these 2 wonders

kb27787 said:

Apparently we must be playing different games on KING (and even emperor) there is no wonder that is impossible to get if you really want it. I don't even remember how King AI is different from Prince since they don't seem to grow at all (no food bonus perhaps)

Click to expand...

Oh, I can still get wonders. My main struggle is trying not to build them all. I'm trying to get out of that habit of building them all.

Calouste said:

A few things to get rid of bad habits on King+:
- Learn to live with the idea that you will be behind the AI for the early part of the game. It's normal.
- Don't build any wonders in your first few games. Later on you can work out which wonders are really worth it. To help with this, don't play Egypt, and reroll if you get Marble (because in both cases you would want to build wonders).
- Don't beeline techs. In the first few games, if you want to make things easy, just pick the tech with the lowest beaker requirements. Later on, you can make a trade off between the benefits you get from a tech and its costs. Research will be cheaper for techs that other civs you have met know already.
- Learn to benefit from the AI. The AI grows faster at higher levels, so trade routes, research agreements, selling resources, etc., are more valuable.
- Play the map/civ, don't start the game with a plan on how you want to win.

Click to expand...

Thanks for tips. Started a King game as Persia and so far everything seems good, although my starting location is somewhat production-heavy (hills and stones) - that helps with wonders.

I think the main difference between Prince and King is learning to manage your citizens manually and take advantage of tile yields. Focus on food for as much as happiness will allow you to, plus a couple mines. If you really need a building/wonder/unit, change to production focus for a few turns but remember to switch back.

Also a good idea to start specialising your cities. Does one of your cities have a bunch of Calendar luxuries? Build markets, banks and stock exchanges to massively boost your gold. Same with mining luxuries and production buildings.

And if you are tempted to early war, don't take their cities. Pillage their land, kill their units and instead cripple them for the rest of the game - when your empire is ready to take their cities, it will be a cakewalk.

Building a (fun!) uber-city with lots of wonders is one of the perks you still get playing on King (and to a lesser extent, Emperor) -- I wouldn't try to break that "bad" habit unless you have dreams of playing on Immortal and Deity.

I would also say that you don't have to worry about micromanagement at all until Immortal or even Deity, if you don't want to. Main thing to appreciate at King and Emperor -- besides going Tradition -- is the importance of having early workers. Mug the AI, mug (one) CS, but get those workers going early.

Sagax said:

Thanks for tips. Started a King game as Persia and so far everything seems good, although my starting location is somewhat production-heavy (hills and stones) - that helps with wonders.

Click to expand...

Well, you're Persia. You have a nice early UU and you get extra movement and power during your Golden Ages. Check if there is a nearby civ that you can attack during your first Golden Age.

Calouste said:

Well, you're Persia. You have a nice early UU and you get extra movement and power during your Golden Ages. Check if there is a nearby civ that you can attack during your first Golden Age.

Click to expand...

I already did And my successful conquest revealed some bad news in terms of self-improvement: apparently other civs got mediocre starts: all settled on flat terrain, and most of the hills are on desert tiles. Meanwhile my Persepolis is guarded by a mountain chain and has a decent mix of hills and stones. I am yet to see the other continent, but the worldwide speed of building wonders seems below average.

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

Building a (fun!) uber-city with lots of wonders is one of the perks you still get playing on King (and to a lesser extent, Emperor) -- I wouldn't try to break that "bad" habit unless you have dreams of playing on Immortal and Deity.

Click to expand...

To be honest--I really don't want to play at those levels. I just play for fun. I love those uber-cities and being able to win. I want a challenge, but not where it becomes a chore and takes the fun out of it.

But according to some, that makes folks like me a lousy player.

Heck--one person in a different thread asked about a civ other than Spain to get better and one of the reponses was that Spain is only for noobs.

And replies in other threads that you need to quit building wonders to be a good player.

I just assumed that just having "fun" was frowned upon by some members, and unless you play at Diety you aren't really good at the game.

That's why when I offer advice on something, I always make sure I preface it by saying I only play at Prince or King level.

With that being said--some folks say you can build every wonder on King, and I don't agree. You can built a lot of them, but you can't build them all. And I am trying to build less, but I guess that's because that's we are told you can't be a good player until you ignore wonders if you wish to move up. And that logic I understand. If I want to play at Emperor or Diety level, I need to stop building wonders. But I don't aim to play at those levels. Diety just doesn't sound fun to me.

docbud said:

To be honest--I really don't want to play at those levels. I just play for fun. I love those uber-cities and being able to win. I want a challenge, but not where it becomes a chore and takes the fun out of it.

But according to some, that makes folks like me a lousy player.

Heck--one person in a different thread asked about a civ other than Spain to get better and one of the reponses was that Spain is only for noobs.

And replies in other threads that you need to quit building wonders to be a good player.

I just assumed that just having "fun" was frowned upon by some members, and unless you play at Diety you aren't really good at the game.

That's why when I offer advice on something, I always make sure I preface it by saying I only play at Prince or King level.

With that being said--some folks say you can build every wonder on King, and I don't agree. You can built a lot of them, but you can't build them all. And I am trying to build less, but I guess that's because that's we are told you can't be a good player until you ignore wonders if you wish to move up. And that logic I understand. If I want to play at Emperor or Diety level, I need to stop building wonders. But I don't aim to play at those levels. Diety just doesn't sound fun to me.

Click to expand...

You don't have to stop building Wonders when you move up, you just have to stop building as many Wonders as you can, and instead focus on building the Wonders that help you the most. As an example, the Hanging Gardens is a nice Wonder if you have a good location for your capital, but it is far more useful to get it if you don't have a lot of food to grow your capital but have hammers instead. I.e. if you have a lot of Sheep and Stone, you want the Hanging Gardens. If you have a lot of Fish, you want a lighthouse, and you don't care much if someone else builds the Hanging Gardens before you.

^^I realize that, and thank you for your post and explanation.

Currently, on King, I am trying to only build the necessary ones. But out of my bad habit, I find myself building a Wonder that I don't really need because it might only take 4 or 5 turns, and it would be nice to have. Not necessary, but likeable. That's the habit I'm trying to get out of.

But then again--I play for fun, and really don't plan on going above King or a level above that. I want to get better but also have fun. And it's so tempting to grab a wonder just to stop the AI from getting it.

I guess it's a weird position. If my economy, science, military, and culture are doing okay, why not build wonders? I'm not a warmonger and don't go for domination or steamrolling (though I sometimes do that late game).

I suppose it depends upon my goals in the game?