ideology unhappiness is impossible and horrible

Just give up on this dude, he clearly doesnt want to change anything. As an immortal/deity player i dont understand where he's coming from at all, i've never gotten a noticeable happiness hit from ideology tourism out of the ~5 games ive played in BNW, and i dont really focus on culture.

Kill them. Kill them all.

Polisurgist said:

Speaking of which, this is like the tenth game where I got totally beat in technology. I don't know what I'm doing wrong; I make my cities in hills or forests, switch immediately to production mode so I can crank out archers, start moving toward Steel for longswordsmen, mine/lumber camp everything I can, and pretty soon it's inevitable, the AI has a way better military than me just because it's ending Renaissance by the time I'm starting Medieval. It isn't fair that a player like me, who wants to focus on military (that's why I'm building troops), has to prioritize science just to stay ahead. Some nerd empire who spends all their time in school shouldn't be able to send musketmen in against my sworsdmen.

And before you ask, I'm not going to stop playing the game exactly this way, because I want to, and that's final.

Now, how do I win this broken, not-at-all-fun game that I hate?

Click to expand...

Seriously?

Try Assyria, go military and conquer cities. They steal tech when they conquer a city.

Polisurgist said:

Speaking of which, this is like the tenth game where I got totally beat in technology. I don't know what I'm doing wrong; I make my cities in hills or forests, switch immediately to production mode so I can crank out archers, start moving toward Steel for longswordsmen, mine/lumber camp everything I can, and pretty soon it's inevitable, the AI has a way better military than me just because it's ending Renaissance by the time I'm starting Medieval. It isn't fair that a player like me, who wants to focus on military (that's why I'm building troops), has to prioritize science just to stay ahead. Some nerd empire who spends all their time in school shouldn't be able to send musketmen in against my sworsdmen.

And before you ask, I'm not going to stop playing the game exactly this way, because I want to, and that's final.

Now, how do I win this broken, not-at-all-fun game that I hate?

Click to expand...

I commend you for your sarcasm sir.

DemonMaster said:

Seriously?

Click to expand...

...seriously?

Quite Juvenalian, actually, with some influence from Swift, I think.

DemonMaster said:

Seriously?

Click to expand...

VainoValkea said:

...seriously?

Click to expand...

Seriously.

Actually I was asking DemonMaster if his "Seriously?" was asked seriously. Seriousception.

For some reason, culture seems to be a pet peeve for some civ players. I've got friends who don't mind the fact that they need science to be a warmonger, and an army to not be trampled even if concentrating on domestic development, but for some reason it annoys them that they actually need culture even if they aren't going for a cultural victory.

VainoValkea said:

Actually I was asking DemonMaster if his "Seriously?" was asked seriously. Seriousception.

For some reason, culture seems to be a pet peeve for some civ players. I've got friends who don't mind the fact that they need science to be a warmonger, and an army to not be trampled even if concentrating on domestic development, but for some reason it annoys them that they actually need culture even if they aren't going for a cultural victory.

Click to expand...

I don't fault them too much for it, even though I think they're wrong. It's easier to learn than to re-learn, so if science was a big part of conquest when you started playing the game, it's a little understandable to feel like tourism/culture got sprung on you. But really, if you were playing a good warmonger before BNW, you still should have been playing some kind of culture game, so I think it's generally not the more skilled conqueror players who are having a big problem now.

Polisurgist said:

I don't fault them too much for it, even though I think they're wrong. It's easier to learn than to re-learn, so if science was a big part of conquest when you started playing the game, it's a little understandable to feel like tourism/culture got sprung on you. But really, if you were playing a good warmonger before BNW, you still should have been playing some kind of culture game, so I think it's generally not the more skilled conqueror players who are having a big problem now.

Click to expand...

I'd also add that the best performers, if faced by an obstacle, tend to try and learn how to overcome it. Whining and throwing tantrums rarely achieves much.

But I can imagine that BNW can get overwhelming if you haven't obsessed over every tidbit of information about it over the last months as I know I did. ;-)

dexters said:

There's a few possibilities for you
I also played the International Games (global wonder) project and got a massive tourism boost there.

Click to expand...

This has saved me. That massive infusion of culture from your commu- excuse me from your completed factories' ability to churn out production and achieve all three levels of the Games event really can be a life saver. It buys a good amount of time to figure out what you're going to do, plus having a golden age shortly thereafter (even more culture, +gold and production to implement whatever plan you've no-doubt hatched), and a free policy. Hopefully you have a happiness one available.

I think you mean the Fair. Fair gives golden age, free policy and a massive boost to culture. The Games give happiness and a massive tourism boost.

Polisurgist said:

Speaking of which, this is like the tenth game where I got totally beat in technology. I don't know what I'm doing wrong; I make my cities in hills or forests, switch immediately to production mode so I can crank out archers, start moving toward Steel for longswordsmen, mine/lumber camp everything I can, and pretty soon it's inevitable, the AI has a way better military than me just because it's ending Renaissance by the time I'm starting Medieval. It isn't fair that a player like me, who wants to focus on military (that's why I'm building troops), has to prioritize science just to stay ahead. Some nerd empire who spends all their time in school shouldn't be able to send musketmen in against my sworsdmen.

And before you ask, I'm not going to stop playing the game exactly this way, because I want to, and that's final.

Now, how do I win this broken, not-at-all-fun game that I hate?

Click to expand...

That's one amusing straw-man and all--I mean, sure, people who think there should be a variety of strategems in this game obviously do deserve to be mocked--but what has it to do with this thread?

steveg700 said:

That's one amusing straw-man and all--I mean, sure, people who think there should be a variety of strategems in this game obviously do deserve to be mocked--but what has it to do with this thread?

Click to expand...

The OP is essentially saying that culture game is bad because they don't want to focus in culture and lose as a result, similarly to how the strawman whining because he is losing in military because he invested only in military instead of science. In fact, the OP isn't even losing yet, just facing the ideology unhappiness punishment for being dominated culturally.

steveg700 said:

That's one amusing straw-man and all--I mean, sure, people who think there should be a variety of strategems in this game obviously do deserve to be mocked--but what has it to do with this thread?

Click to expand...

There are a variety of strategies to win the game. There are five victory conditions and multiple ways of achieving each one. There are just no winning strategies that involve completely ignoring an entire aspect of the game.

You can win without being top in tech, but not by ignoring tech.
You can win without being top in culture, but not by ignoring culture.
You can win without being top in tourism, but not by ignoring tourism.
You can win without being top in GPT, but not by ignoring GPT.
You can win without being top in military, but not by ignoring military.
You can win without being top in faith, but not by ignoring faith.

It ain't exactly rocket science.

Again, I'm not sure why culture gets all the flak. You don't see anyone whining that "why can't I just ignore my army, I don't want a domination victory" or (apart from the strawman) "why do I lose all my wars, I always put all my resources in warfare. Science sucks!"

Civ's a game of balance. Culture is one of those things you need to balance. If you're being dominated culturally, you should react the same way as when invaded by an enemy with an overwhelming force: react, relearn, not just whine on the forums that culture/military is impossible and horrible.

VainoValkea said:

The OP is essentially saying that culture game is bad because they don't want to focus in culture and lose as a result, similarly to how the strawman whining because he is losing in military because he invested only in military instead of science. In fact, the OP isn't even losing yet, just facing the ideology unhappiness punishment for being dominated culturally.

Click to expand...

Well, let me ask this: at one point is it "your fault" for not generating enough? What should be standard issue? Building museums in every city? Building all the guilds ASAP? Fast-tracking archaeology and building archaologists pronto?

How much of a strategy that you aren't trying to do are you required to do just to defend yoruself?

I had a game where I had religious idols as a pantheon belief, choral music as a folllower belief, liberty, and alliances with two cultur CS's. And yet, I wound up with dissidents after picking an ideology. I thought I was doing great culturally, at about 180 per turn. And it still wasn't enough.

So, what was my fault? Using my GW's for treatises instead of making books? Not having a museum in every city? Not building a musican's guild before year XXXX? If what I was doing was wrong, then there must be very little room in the game for not doing culture. And I cans ee someone having a beef with that.

VainoValkea said:

Again, I'm not sure why culture gets all the flak. You don't see anyone whining that "why can't I just ignore my army, I don't want a domination victory" or (apart from the strawman) "why do I lose all my wars, I always put all my resources in warfare. Science sucks!"

Click to expand...

Military's a good example, actually. You need some military units, but how little you need is based on how much risk you're willing to assume. Maybe you'll stockpile gold to build on the fly. Masybe you'll build walls and such. Maybe you'll bribe your neighbors into leaving you alone or making defensive pacts or declaring war on each other. Maybe you'll deter aggerssors with lots of CS alliances. You have to devise solutions, or just assume a heavier risk.

But there is no element of risk here. You just get hammered, with happiness. Finis. And as far as I can tell, the amount of culture you'd have to be generating is quite high. Not only that, but as more civ's tip towards the dominant ideology, the unhappiness ramps up for anyone trying to hold their ground.

I don't see your point. I had to focus more on army than I wanted because I landed next to Attila. If he pummeled me, that's because he did better than me, and that implies it's my fault for not having a proper army. Is that not ok? Why should culture be less important and more optional than the rest?

VainoValkea said:

I don't see your point. I had to focus more on army than I wanted because I landed next to Attila. If he pummeled me, that's because he did better than me, and that implies it's my fault for not having a proper army. Is that not ok? Why should culture be less important and more optional than the rest?

Click to expand...

Any time something bad happens to a person, it isn't automatically their fault.

If you had to go all out building armies nonstop every game (not just in one particular game where you were dealt a rougher hand than usual), and it actually got in the way of performing other strategies, then that actually would be constitute a legitimate gripe.

That's why I asked all those quesitons. What is the reasonable expectation with regards to generating culture? At higher difficulties, you are getting clobbered by the AI's ability to get the jump on virtually every wonder (paticularly in the early game), and while wonders don't decide the military part of the game, they are very important in culture war. So how much effort should you have to expect to dedicate in every game?