When do you consider the game won?

MIS

Prince
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
494
Location
Philly,
When you're playing, do you play every game you're winning to the victory screen, or stop when you're ahead by enough. If the latter, how much is enough?

(Right now I've got over 2800 points and second has under 1500. I'm ahead by 10 techs, several cultural policies, allied with every CS still in the game, have the best army, and a civ as a vassal (after taking their capital after they declared on me. I was aiming for a diplo victory; I've build UN so just need to pass World Ideology and Global Hegemony. But this is going to take another 20 turns, at least, and I get declared on all the time; spanking them but each turn, including waiting for the AI, takes maybe 5-10 min a turn. This is on 3.7.12, Deity, busted Austria with the diplo marriages.)
 
For me I usually consider a game won when I feel like I have an unassailable lead and have made it to Atomic. In my experience, the AI really falls off after Industrial, even in Deity, and is very bad at doing the min-maxing needed to actually secure a victory condition. So by Atomic, if I'm going Freedom, I know that I can easily double or triple a tech/policy lead in just a few dozen turns with proper GP utilization, or if I'm going Order/Autocracy and have the largest Army, I know that I can war really aggressively and even then my army is likely only going to get stronger. I'll still almost always keep playing the game, even after I've actually achieved a victory condition as an already-won game can be a fun sandbox moment for me to do some crazy things and see how much you can stretch the game engine (like trying to get every city to 50+ pop or conquering every city). I'll usually just stop playing once I get bored or have other things to do lol.
 
This is exactly the question I came here to ask! I'm fairly new to the game but I think I need to stop playing on Prince. My current game, as Norway, on turn 355:

I have 32 cities. My Score is 1837, second place 954. I've captured six of nine AI capitals. My Military Score is 5216, just under twice the total of the rest of the world put together. I have three of nine surviving Civs following my religion, more than anyone else, and I generate 314 Faith per turn to the runner-up's 215. Scientifically, I am eleven techs ahead of the runner up and generating over 200 more Science per turn. I'm still in second place culturally, but now generating more Culture and Tourism per turn than the leader, who's not close to winning. I've been universally denounced all game and certainly aren't going to win diplomatically, but the leader in that category only has ten points.

There's no possible way I could lose this without deliberately trying to, right? I need permission to call it a win and get on with my life.
 
I would say kick up the difficulty if you are on a low difficulty like Prince. You don't NEED to win. You may learn a lot more just enjoying a role playing experience and not obsessing about winning. Even on Diety the AI can be very friendly with you if you are also friendly and not too aggressive.

The size of the world can definitely change the length of the "end game" I've been using Huge lately but I feel it really needs Marathon speed to have a full world conquest. This will probably several weeks depending on your free time. But this gives the AI time to get that "We know you're going to win and we don't like it" modifier and actually put up a good Information age fight. Airplanes do add another level of warfare.

Otherwise Large/Epic is great. I may go back to that so I can finish more playthroughs lol
 
You know when you've won and that can happen quite soon in a game
Sometimes I just don't feel like the late game war drag so quit out.
AI doesn't care what i try to prove lol
 
The problem is how unbalanced the AI is... and the more complicated the mod the less well it often does.

The game compensates by early aggressiveness so that the AI tries to kill you before you have proper infrastructure up.... but once you get past that point it starts to fall apart. What would be great is being able to change the difficulty by era so it slowly ramps up to keep the AI being a challenge rather than starting off a murderous savage and end up a pathetic emo mewling teenager that thinks he's so strong but does not know how to tie shoe laces without spraining his fingers or something.... it gets to the point where the AI becomes so irrationally aggressive you have to vassal it just to stop it attacking you like a rabid dog... which makes more AI's do it and you become forced to vassal the entire map..... which means you have no competition left and the game is over before you get atomic power.

The limits are just so ridiculous once you think about it. Civ 4 comes out better purely because the AI has less tactical disadvantage.... it's bizarre how it still moves units around in Civ V purely for the sake of moving them so it can look competent while in fact it does not take necessary kills, block anything effectively and does not heal needed units. In my last game to handycap myself towards the end I literally just used a human wall of cheap rifleman and overwhelmed the poor sods with a mixed resistance that should have made mincemeat of me.
 
The problem is how unbalanced the AI is... and the more complicated the mod the less well it often does.

The game compensates by early aggressiveness so that the AI tries to kill you before you have proper infrastructure up.... but once you get past that point it starts to fall apart. What would be great is being able to change the difficulty by era so it slowly ramps up to keep the AI being a challenge rather than starting off a murderous savage and end up a pathetic emo mewling teenager that thinks he's so strong but does not know how to tie shoe laces without spraining his fingers or something.... it gets to the point where the AI becomes so irrationally aggressive you have to vassal it just to stop it attacking you like a rabid dog... which makes more AI's do it and you become forced to vassal the entire map..... which means you have no competition left and the game is over before you get atomic power.

The limits are just so ridiculous once you think about it. Civ 4 comes out better purely because the AI has less tactical disadvantage.... it's bizarre how it still moves units around in Civ V purely for the sake of moving them so it can look competent while in fact it does not take necessary kills, block anything effectively and does not heal needed units. In my last game to handycap myself towards the end I literally just used a human wall of cheap rifleman and overwhelmed the poor sods with a mixed resistance that should have made mincemeat of me.
This comment is quite possibly the best I've ever seen on the topic and nails it perfectly. The tying the shoelaces spraining fingers part made me smile. :)
 
I have once again fallen into the same problem.... probably as a coping mechanism the AI gets bonuses it seems because of proximity to the player.

When you pull ahead you start noticing.... the AI with the highest scores are ALWAYS your immediate neighbour, he either ties with or surpasses you in tech, he becomes irrationally aggressive and there is only one of them. He tries to bring you down and basically forces you to either destroy or vassal him.... the other AI progressively jump on the bandwagon and by the time you have delt with this threat.... it's basically game over because no other AI stands a chance any more.

You start noticing this because sometimes another AI far away becomes the new golden child who suddenly is tech competitive but most of the time it does not stand much of a chance anyway. At the same time the AI suffers due to the costs of expansion so you notice it barely expands at all and then there are explosions of wars and settler activity.... depending on player performance. I wonder why the devs decided to try and nuance it this way instead of just giving all of the AI (or at least a third) boosts.

I did not even make it past cannon this time before I basically won the game. The AI simply does not expand the way it should, probably because it needs to funnel resources into useless military units it does nothing constructive with. And then there is the build then bankrupt/disband loop.
 
I wondered about this. It did seem like the front runner was always close by. In this particular playthrough he was not directly next to me. But was the next over and convinced my direct neighbor into voluntary capitulation. So it was practically the same thing. This time around he's held out pretty well in Diety. Maybe because it was a more peaceful Siam but he would never declare war on ne. Even if I annexed his CS. I finally declared on him when I saw a Great Diplomat. I was sick of him. By this time my neighbor had become my forced vassel. (Basically as soon as he liberated himself) But this was a Fusilair(me) vs. Landship war. That was interesting but I held out. Then he gave me a ridiculously generous peace treaty with very little positive war score.

This was a bit unique this time around. But if the AI is always buffing the nearest neighbor I think I disagree with this. Because when you Annex this super capital now you have a dozen world wonders and will totally landslide the competition. Maybe we should do the opposite and a FURTHEST civ should be super buffed.
 
I have once again fallen into the same problem.... probably as a coping mechanism the AI gets bonuses it seems because of proximity to the player.

When you pull ahead you start noticing.... the AI with the highest scores are ALWAYS your immediate neighbour, he either ties with or surpasses you in tech, he becomes irrationally aggressive and there is only one of them. He tries to bring you down and basically forces you to either destroy or vassal him.... the other AI progressively jump on the bandwagon and by the time you have delt with this threat.... it's basically game over because no other AI stands a chance any more.

You start noticing this because sometimes another AI far away becomes the new golden child who suddenly is tech competitive but most of the time it does not stand much of a chance anyway. At the same time the AI suffers due to the costs of expansion so you notice it barely expands at all and then there are explosions of wars and settler activity.... depending on player performance. I wonder why the devs decided to try and nuance it this way instead of just giving all of the AI (or at least a third) boosts.

I did not even make it past cannon this time before I basically won the game. The AI simply does not expand the way it should, probably because it needs to funnel resources into useless military units it does nothing constructive with. And then there is the build then bankrupt/disband loop.

I had to think about why the AI falls off in the late game - obviously the early-game strength is annoying (as you said in your previous post - the AI's only chance at winning is to wipe you off the map before it can't win). But there's one specific thing the early game does that the late game does not, which is...

...Unit Counts.

The AI actually *isn't bad* at pinning down units, using flanking, mobility, etc. Yes, it seems to run away at times for no reason. However, what functions as either an advantage or just a normal baseline for the AI in the early game falls off later on because there are SO MANY units that that pinning a unit, for example, becomes impossible. Additionally, the ridiculous movement speeds of some units (Tanks, Railroads) allow the player in particular to gain advantages in combat in places he otherwise couldn't, and the AI can't keep up with it.

Essentially, if I had a suggestion to make - it would be that unit counts should remain fairly static throughout the game, right through to the Modern era. If the player can only defend so many flanks at once, then the AI has some maneuverability available; if the player is winning decisively, then a multi-pronged attack from several Civs has the potential to do real damage. And as previously mentioned - movement speeds need to put on the brakes, because with Railroad tech in particular it's just too easy to defend everywhere simultaneously.

This is just a start, there's likely more - but you've got to start somewhere.
 
I'd nerf route speed in general, but it'll make railroads even less worth building than now since there isn't much improvement from roads.

Alternatively, teach the AI to paradrop and pillage routes more frequently. Especially in packs so you can't do much against it.
 
Well you can definitely lower military caps. Make going over the cap the only option for being aggressive. Force growth and production slow down.
 
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