Wiping out a civ: Yay or Nay?

My current game, I am at war with Venice. They backstabbed me and said they would stop sending missionaries and prophets into my lands but continued to do so. They were also targeting my CS allies to become part of the Venetian empire. So I had to attack them. This is war #2. I have his capital, just took Ormus and now he is left with Buenos Aires. I am tired of his antics and would prefer to take him out. However, I have DOF with 3 other civs. 2 of them are also tight with Venice. I am sure to lose at least 2 of those if I wipe out Venice. The Goths have wiped out Morocco on the other continent. I have been liberating Anglo-Saxon cities (including their capital) from the Huns. Thoughts? Should I take the diplo hit? I am about 22 happiness and have the lead in tech. Belgium is now my friend but is very tight with Venice and would be the most angry if I wiped them out. The Belgians are also #2 in score and probably science (Goths are close) but they appear to be going for a culture win....they won't get it...I have a lot!
I am leaning towards just removing the Venetians from the game.

Pros:
* One less guy voting against you in WC
* One fewer set of spies to deal with couping city states
* One less guy with annoying nag "diplomacy" screens
* Fewer borders to deal with

Cons:
* Diplomacy is basically over; everyone will hate you
* Less trade going around

I'll go for the wipe if I'm playing for domination and he's either in my way, chatty, or Alexander. Otherwise I don't bother.

Unless you never want to trade anything again, always leave them one or two useless cities.
Going this way they'll be so weak anyway that some other AI is bound to DOW and knock them out to make everyone mad at them instead of you anyway.

Normally, I would just leave them one weak city, but since it is Venice, they have a decent former city-state and will eventually buy another, most likely one I am allied with. I may just have to join the Goths as a world pariah.

Because of the merchants, Venice is usually worth destroying completely. Even if he has just one city left he could still swipe city states.

A super sneaky way to handle this would be to end your war, capture some other city in the middle of a bunch of other nations, select Raze, but sell it to Venice before it completes. Now Venice has a location near a bunch of other people. That's almost an assured blow out conflict. Of course, you could found the city yourself and sell, but that hurts your research.

(I use this trick all the time to bust alliances. Take a city I don't really want, start to raze, sell to a weak "sucker" civ not in a position to defend it, then watch the fireworks. Sometimes you have to bribe people for it to work. But you can ignite global massive conflict this way.)

Well ! See that, people ? A new, nasty, that A) I hadn't thought of, and B) hasn't been used on me .

This is why these threads are sooo important .

You NASTY, FIENDISH SO-AND-SO's !!!; I'll use it .

once i destroyed shaka and everyone still loved me.
to save relations you have to 1) dof everybody, 2) make everyone hate venice. (2) is harder, you should denounce them, and bribe your friends to dow it. War declaration adds a little to warmonger penalty, so you can go to war with them but not capturing cities for a while - just destroy their trade with other civs (caravans, resources), kill off their army and pillage improvements, so other leaders will value their friendship with venice less and will be more willing to dow it. at the worst case (everyone still likes venice) you'll be able to protect your CSs from GMoVs and train your units.

Definitely nay. Every time I completely wiped out a civilization I ended up dogpiled by the other civilizations. After that, I had one of my city states take a civilization's last city, destroyed him and I didn't get dogpiled that badly.

Don't destroy Venice - just contain them. Leave them with one or two weak cities, but do not end the war. Post some new recruits on their borders, kill any unit that comes your way and farm the experience points.

There's no war weariness in this version so there is no penalty for a 6,000 year war.

Only if it's Alexander or any Civ that's going to be a major annoyance even with only a city or two left.

Most of the time it's warmonger Civs, so I like to make the last couple of cities I take to be ones that belong to other Civs, so I can get a tasty Liberation bonus instead of a Warmonger penalty.

If continents, I kill them! If Pangea, I spare them till I'm on top of things - then I kill them!!!


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Definitely agree about Venice, must exterminate; others, try to leave them their crappiest city for future trading vassels .

I have exterminated Venice before and Alexander then got mad at me and declared war. If yay, why not exterminate before world congress? You'll save madness by not knowing anyone yet.

I find the hate levels are fairly consistent for everyone:
1. passive/friendly AI
2. aggressive AI
3. Alex

I still think keeping venice with a really small city is ok, but either you keep them close to a bunch of other AIs, or you corner him off so most of his trade routes can only go to you.

The warmonger penalty for annihilation is apparently much higher than taking cities. And you can sufficiently cripple AI so they've effectively lost.

Its difficult to have Venice stay with a city since it can't build settlers. You have to wait and be patient for Venice to buy a city state so that you can get Venice to survive.

If you are conquering to the point of leaving them only a city or two you might as well go all the way and remove them. No more denouncements, no more spies, in short no more problems.

If the other civs were friends with the victim they will hate you regardless, if the victim was unliked they might not care. Some civs will hate you just for capturing one city so if you are going to war be prepared to be a pariah. If your path to victory requires that you be friends with most of the civs then refrain from capturing any cities in war.

Since it is Venice we are talking about, the usual strategy of leaving them with one trash city doesn't apply (since CS are all in good locations). The MoV means they are too dangerous to leave in the game.

I love isau’s idea, but the approach is not particular to Venice, and it might take too long to pull off. It also means you have to make peace with them so you can sell/gift them a trash city before DOWing. Even just ten turns of peace will be enough time for the city you had under siege to recover, plus it’s more warmonger hate.

So, assuming Venice has at least one CS, and it is too late in the game to kill them, here is what I suggest (also not quick):

1. Take their cap.
2. Stay at war (to farm experience) but don't take their only city.
3. Wait for Venice to buy a new CS.
4. Take the city you had been farming for xp.
5. If the new CS has a neighbor (could be another CS or an AI), then do everything you can to have that neighbor kill Venice.
6. If the new CS is isolated, then move your xp farm to the new location, repeat steps (3) thru (5).

I find Venice so frustrating that I have taken them out of rotation as opponent AI. This thread makes me want to reconsider that!