Compare Liberty and Tradition, Head-to-Head

consentient · Apr 28, 2015

I like to finish Liberty ASAP so I can use the GE for NC. The best way to do it is to build the Pyramids early, then use workers to chop the Oracle as soon as the 2x settlers are out, use the free policy to finish Liberty and take the GE to finish the NC. That way you have 3 city NC before its usually possible on Tradition (albeit with smaller cities) and you have a better army.

Piety should also be something you get through ASAP. You want a decent reformation, and there are only 3 or 4 of those. With sometimes 5 AIs going Piety out of 7 these days, you want to get to it faster. Ofc that was the reason they gave it a boost, but on Deity its even harder to get.

Opening Tradition when you want to go Liberty or Honor is a big mistake in my book as you don't need the border expansion before T100. I OFTEN open Tradition after I finish Honor or Liberty if I don't have the requisite allies to make Patronage important enough, am not playing Culture so don't need the Aesthetics opener, and don't desperately need Commerce yet. But early game its really not necessary. That's why I say 'Open'.

TLDR: By 'Open' I mean 'Open and finish ASAP'.

Antarion · Apr 28, 2015

consentient said:
I made a flow chart that I think is helpful. Hopefully no one will argue too much with these blanket statements

TLDR: Open Tradition if you don't have specific ideas or if your specific idea is SV/CV.

EDIT: If I can't get through the week without playing Civ 5, I'll play the Korea map twice Trad and Liberty. I'm a mediocre player so I think it's a better test

if u make this chart a bit more complicating you would be right

tradition is good for a fast growing capital with GOOD tiles around it, good for peacekeeper and imho nearly a duty for most of the seafaring civs (except carthage n byzantium)

liberty for fast expanding and low production, nice addition if u can conquer cities and the production boost is nice also for wars

honor for early unit spam to get some culture back for other trees (if you dont like to fight in the early 40 turns or so on forget this tree)

piety is a duty for early strong religions and a viable alternative if u have silver, gold, wine and sometimes incense (but plz not if only in desert terrain) for tradition or liberty

imho liberty or tradition IS always necessary, piety is good for religion, honor for unit spam. dont forget the synergies between honor n tradition, which allows a slower expansive playstyle but nearly as ICS like as liberty now.

beetle · Apr 28, 2015

consentient said:
TLDR: By 'Open' I mean 'Open and finish ASAP'.

Thanks for the clarification, and I concur with most of your explanations!

I like to finish Liberty ASAP so I can use the GE for NC.

I am not sold on the GE for NC, but if you already have Oracle, what else are you going to do with a GE at that point in the game? But planting a GS at that point seems like very strong play. Compared to that, what real difference is a dozen turn wait on NC make?

Piety should also be something you get through ASAP. You want a decent reformation, and there are only 3 or 4 of those.

I dont disagree about getting through Piety ASAP, especially when you open it. Jesuit Education is great and you want it early. To the Glory of God is great, but you only need it early in order to beat the AI to it. Sacred Site is popular with the AI, but aside from the early ICS ploy, is it really very strong? What is the other one (or two) reformation beliefs that you like?

I OFTEN open Tradition after I finish Honor or Liberty...

I think that is perfectly reasonably, and so I am surprised this strategy does not get discussed more.

IronfighterXXX · Apr 28, 2015

beetle said:
That would only be telling if (1) you beat it and (2) both you and that someone agree that someone is a consistently stronger player than you. If either condition (1) or (2) is not true, then your results dont advance the Liberty v Tradition debate..

Well, obviously I wasn't talking about some random guy, but about players which I consider good like Acken, HoF guys, etc (that why I said if 'someone post great result with liberty')

beetle said:
What we all want to know is if there are maps that work better for if played Liberty instead of Tradition. I think that boils down to individuals playing maps twice.

Not necessary, if player prefer eg. liberty and always play it he can get better result just because he has experience in it, so playing same maps twice doesn't resolve problem.

Funny as we completely intercept OP thread and nobody even bother with OP challenge :lol:

Cromagnus · Apr 28, 2015

IronfighterXXX, didn't he say his t228 Liberty start was being submitted to HOF? The starting autosave should be part of the submission, and he could just post that here.

beetle, yes I meant that Shoshone's UA compensates for not having the tradition opener.

RE: Competition, the rules should be *finish* one tree before starting the other. This isn't about hybrid strategies, this is about Tradition vs Liberty. If your Liberty strategy starts with "First open Tradition" then, well, Case closed...

beetle · Apr 28, 2015

IronfighterXXX said:
Not necessary, if player prefer eg. liberty and always play it he can get better result just because he has experience in it, so playing same maps twice doesn't resolve problem.

Actually, I think playing against habits/preferences but getting good results that you don’t expect is about the only way to make progress towards resolving the question. There are many avenues that result in just debating the issue...

Funny as we completely intercept OP thread and nobody even bother with OP challenge.

Well, OP had a provocative idea, but then spoiled it (for most people’s tastes on this sub forum) by specifying King and Legendary start.

Nigel_Tufnel2 · Apr 28, 2015

Playing the same map twice is likely to give benefits for the second game. You might need to play the first game's tree in a third game to be fair. And heck, then play the second game's tree in a fourth!

IronfighterXXX · Apr 28, 2015

Cromagnus said:
IronfighterXXX, didn't he say his t228 Liberty start was being submitted to HOF? The starting autosave should be part of the submission, and he could just post that here.

Yes, but he also admitted that he is not sure if liberty was really better on this map.

Cromagnus · Apr 28, 2015

IronfighterXXX said:
Yes, but he also admitted that he is not sure if liberty was really better on this map.

Ah, right.

beetle · Apr 28, 2015

Nigel_Tufnel2 said:
Playing the same map twice is likely to give benefits for the second game.

Agreed. So in trying to convince myself that I could make Liberty work, I mostly have played Liberty second, after I know the map and the AIs involved, and that for sure I have room for 6+ cities. Even then my Tradition games are stronger. :sad:

Also, there are a few games where I have open Liberty and won, and then replayed using Tradition. In those cases, much to my disappointment, the Tradition games have worked out stronger. (But those might be because of map foreknowledge.)

So, in my mind, the issue seems pretty well settled. But I am kind of stagnated with Tradition, and I don’t feel like I am getting all I can out of Liberty. My intuition is that Liberty offers me a path towards improving my play, so that is why I am so interested in this debate.

Cromagnus · Apr 28, 2015

In my mind the Tradition "nerf" was misguided. Most of the game is spent after completing the tree. It's true that rearranging the policies was a nerf, in that it slows down the tradition snowball, but only by a few turns, and in the end, it's just as powerful. Had they rearranged the policies further, such that you had to get everything but the last two before you could take EITHER of the last two, then the nerf would be strong enough to perhaps compensate. But, in general, I would have preferred they adjust the final bonuses of the trees. And really, the issue wasn't that Tradition was too strong, the issue was that the other Ancient Era trees were weaker. Rearranging made Reformation easier to attain on Deity, which was good, but it didn't improve what was wrong with the tree *at all*, and also made Sacred Sites easier, which was a bad thing IMHO. They didn't improve Honor *at all*, they didn't address repair in hostile territory, etc. etc.

Ultimately, Tradition is more powerful because it benefits tall empires the most, and the game rules penalize wide empires. Which in turn penalizes per-city bonuses. Honor = wide. Piety = wide. Liberty = wide. Honor because of conquest, Piety because you can only plant so many faith buildings/city, and Liberty, well duh.

I'm very sad they didn't throw +1 to culture from shrines into the Piety opener. That's a no-brainer that fixes some of the biggest issues. Throw +1 science from temples in with Reformation. Add "25% of city conquest gold is rewarded in beakers" to Honor, make the +culture and happiness not require garrisons (which is a turtle policy in a WAR tree!), etc. etc.

The problem wasn't Tradition. The problem was the other three trees. Liberty is still very effective, though. It's a clear 2nd for peaceful play. I don't mind Honor not being viable for peaceful play, but Piety should be. Anyway, that's off-topic.

Manpanzee · Apr 28, 2015

IronfighterXXX said:
Yes, but he also admitted that he is not sure if liberty was really better on this map.

Here's the initial autosave if you want to try it. I'm not sure if Liberty was really better on this map, but I try to avoid being sure about such things in general. The quote that plays when you build the Oracle is relevant here.

I think you're a bit better than I am at SV, so if you can't beat my time by more than 10 or so turns with Tradition, then I'll be satisfied with my Liberty game.

But I do think that it's hard to compare results even on the same map. There's tons of in-game factors that are going to be different.

consentient · Apr 28, 2015

beetle said:
I am not sold on the GE for NC, but if you already have Oracle, what else are you going to do with a GE at that point in the game? But planting a GS at that point seems like very strong play. Compared to that, what real difference is a dozen turn wait on NC make?

Those are 12-15 turns you could be pumping units, building a market, Machu Pichu, etc. (MP is not as hard to get as some people make out. If you arrive at Guilds in good time then its not like CI or Colossus where some AIs are furiously after it. I get it 2/3 times out of 5, and when I don't get it, I make a note of who built it and escalate them up the attack order)

What is the other one (or two) reformation beliefs that you like?

The ones that are genuinely worth the effort are:

Jesuit Education (best, totally broken)
Glory of God (really great, game-speeding and easing)
Evangelism (solid for religious offence)
Charitable Missions (helps Diplo games)

Nigel_Tufnel2 said:
Playing the same map twice is likely to give benefits for the second game. You might need to play the first game's tree in a third game to be fair. And heck, then play the second game's tree in a fourth!

These ones go up to 11!

IronfighterXXX · Apr 28, 2015

Cromagnus said:
I'm very sad they didn't throw +1 to culture from shrines into the Piety opener. That's a no-brainer that fixes some of the biggest issues. Throw +1 science from temples in with Reformation. Add "25% of city conquest gold is rewarded in beakers" to Honor, make the +culture and happiness not require garrisons (which is a turtle policy in a WAR tree!), etc. etc.

Those are quite interesting ideas. I remember you said before that you work on mod - are you going to implement those changes in it?

Manpanzee said:
Here's the initial autosave if you want to try it. I'm not sure if Liberty was really better on this map, but I try to avoid being sure about such things in general. The quote that plays when you build the Oracle is relevant here.

OK thanks! I will try to play it in free time.

Cromagnus · Apr 28, 2015

IronfighterXXX said:
Those are quite interesting ideas. I remember you said before that you work on mod - are you going to implement those changes in it?

OK thanks! I will try to play it in free time.

If I ever get to the general balance mod yes, right now I'm focusing on one that just rebalances Deity, with as few changes to game rules as possible. As soon as I figure out how to publish that Deity mod, I'll post a link on the forums. It's still a work in progress though.

If I get to the second mod, I will definitely try to make it so that the two are compatible.

Acken · Apr 28, 2015

Cromagnus said:
RE: Competition, the rules should be *finish* one tree before starting the other. This isn't about hybrid strategies, this is about Tradition vs Liberty. If your Liberty strategy starts with "First open Tradition" then, well, Case closed...

I don't think that's totally fair. If you need the tradition opener to make your overall strategy efficient then so be it, it's still a Liberty game in my book.

Cromagnus said:
I'm very sad they didn't throw +1 to culture from shrines into the Piety opener. That's a no-brainer that fixes some of the biggest issues. Throw +1 science from temples in with Reformation. Add "25% of city conquest gold is rewarded in beakers" to Honor, make the +culture and happiness not require garrisons (which is a turtle policy in a WAR tree!), etc. etc.

Well all 3 would get benefits from helping wide plays to begin with.

Removing/lowering the penalty for expansion. Increasing the length of the game (since wide need more time to ramp up) making happiness easier to manage after conquest or when adding cities, things like that. Making national wonders easier to get on wide games... etc.

However you'd have to make sure it doesn't get unbalanced the other way like CivBE. The balance isn't far off in civ5

Bleidraner · Apr 28, 2015

Acken said:
I don't think that's totally fair. If you need the tradition opener to make your overall strategy efficient then so be it, it's still a Liberty game in my book.

Well all 3 would get benefits from helping wide plays to begin with.

Removing/lowering the penalty for expansion. Increasing the length of the game (since wide need more time to ramp up) making happiness easier to manage after conquest or when adding cities, things like that. Making national wonders easier to get on wide games... etc.

However you'd have to make sure it doesn't get unbalanced the other way like CivBE. The balance isn't far off in civ5

Hybrids are Ok as long as your main tree is Liberty, in my opinion. Unless you are playing Caz, you will not complete both trees if you are trying for a competitive game, so putting a policy or whatever you like in Tradition or any other tree is OK in my opinion. I am going to try to post Acken's file, see what we can come up with. We all agree that Tradition is stronger but as Manpanzee put it really well, in all maps? With all civs?

EDIT: Posted the save a few minutes ago. Will try to play it over the next few days.

Cromagnus · Apr 28, 2015

I think if we're comparing the value of Liberty vs Tradition, you're throwing in the towel if you take a point of Tradition to start the game. You're basically saying, "Liberty isn't good enough on its own, it needs some Tradition to succeed"...

Or, said another way, if you take a pt of Tradition in your quest to prove Liberty can compete with Tradition, it's not really a fair comparison, and it just proves how powerful Tradition is.

Tradition is powerful on its own, without a point of Liberty. Liberty is noticeably hamstrung by slow tile acquisition on its own. Honor is worse, because barbarian culture doesn't contribute to city boundary expansion, and Piety has nothing at all, unless you count discounts on faith buildings, which aren't relevant until about ~t80+.

Back when I used to rant about how unbalanced Honor and Piety are, that was the basis. Did the game designers intend that everyone open with a point of Tradition, or is it an oversight and an imbalance that the Tradition opener is so critical? If not, then the designers *clearly* intended for Tradition to be superior IE that the others are secondary trees, and Tradition is the only one intended to be self-sufficient.

Bleidraner · Apr 28, 2015

Cromagnus said:
I think if we're comparing the value of Liberty vs Tradition, you're throwing in the towel if you take a point of Tradition to start the game. You're basically saying, "Liberty isn't good enough on its own, it needs some Tradition to succeed"...

Or, said another way, if you take a pt of Tradition in your quest to prove Liberty can compete with Tradition, it's not really a fair comparison, and it just proves how powerful Tradition is.

Tradition is powerful on its own, without a point of Liberty. Liberty is noticeably hamstrung by slow tile acquisition on its own. Honor is worse, because barbarian culture doesn't contribute to city boundary expansion, and Piety has nothing at all, unless you count discounts on faith buildings, which aren't relevant until about ~t80+.

Back when I used to rant about how unbalanced Honor and Piety are, that was the basis. Did the game designers intend that everyone open with a point of Tradition, or is it an oversight and an imbalance that the Tradition opener is so critical? If not, then the designers *clearly* intended for Tradition to be superior IE that the others are secondary trees, and Tradition is the only one intended to be self-sufficient.

We all seem to be in agreement that Tradition is stronger, the only question that remains is whether that is true for all maps and civs. I think it would be unfair to cripple the Liberty player by forcing him to do that tree and nothing else. I'd like to see what we can do with optimal game play, why put that extra policy in Patronage in t100 if I think (and I do believe that is true) that Liberty is played best with the Tradition opener on t15, especially in a pure science game. That should be OK. Anyway that is just my opinion.

Acken · Apr 28, 2015

I understand what you mean Cromagnus but disagree.
Tradition also has the possibility to take another point in another tree. In commerce or Patronage after the tree is completed. That it does so after the complete tree is totally irrelevant in my opinion.
It's the overall strategy that is important. If Tradition 1 + Liberty 6 + Rationalism 6 is as good as Tradition 6 + Commerce 1 + Rationalism 6 then Liberty is a good tree. What is important is that options have a meaningful place/usefulness. Where exactly it should fit in the plan is the kind of stuff top players will try to figure out. The purpose is to see how it can be used and if that usage is satisfactory or not.

You do not balance the trees in a vacuum. If to balance your trees you have to assume the player won't pick other policies outside of it, your resulting balancing is skewed (or that limitation has to be reflected in the game by locking you out). If the best way to play Liberty currently is to pick Tradition opener then if you make it so Liberty 6 is as good as Tradition 6 separately you run the risk of ending up with Tradition 1 + Liberty 6 being the new dominant strategy. Though in that case it's not certain taking tradition first is really the best to begin with but for the sake of the discussion I assume it is.

The purpose of balance is not that all choice lead to equal results is that all choices have a reasonably similar window of usefulness.

Compare Liberty and Tradition, Head-to-Head

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