SGOTM 15 - One Short Straw

Okay, so assuming that we forget about founding Judaism, would we be able to slot Hunting into our tech path early enough to be able to improve a Deer with a Camp shortly after a City by the Deer is founded? If not, then does it really make sense to put City #2 by the Deer?
 
ZPV said:
We have more short-term production than the turn0 teams, but fewer food and hammers long-term. So our game has to be based on REX if we don't want to just fall behind.

Honestly, I think we should be prepared to build a worker first (or even two! exploring warriors while growing) if we don't like what we see, but also be prepared to change to a settler on turn 2 (or turn 8) if we see something where neil posted a sign saying "settle me". :crazyeye::p
Click to expand...
If we want to REX, we could leverage our stone start by slotting in Masonary as soon as feasible and try to get some serious failed gold. We should even test poly-agri-(TW)-masonry-(TW) starts, because throwing in an extra ~200gold could really give our 3- or 4-city REX a kick in the REXter and give them a chance to grow.

With 4 healthy cities instead of two, plus marble and stone, we might be able to domino the failed gold with another wonder or two, like the Temple of Artemis and The Oracle.
 
LowtherCastle said:
If we want to REX, we could leverage our stone start by slotting in Masonary as soon as feasible and try to get some serious failed gold. We should even test poly-agri-(TW)-masonry-(TW) starts, because throwing in an extra ~200gold could really give our 3- or 4-city REX a kick in the REXter and give them a chance to grow.
Click to expand...
Does Stonehenge really cost more than 200 Hammers? It doesn't matter how many base Hammers we put into Stonehenge--it's only the final Hammers that give us Gold--and none of those Hammers give us Gold if we put in more final Hammers than it costs to complete the Wonder.


LowtherCastle said:
With 4 healthy cities instead of two, plus marble and stone, we might be able to domino the failed gold with another wonder or two, like the Temple of Artemis and The Oracle.
Click to expand...
The Great Wall will probably be built by an AI sooner than the Temple of Artemis. We wouldn't even need to get Marble connected early if we were going to get Failure Gold from Stonehenge + The Great Wall.

I.e. If we don't settle on top of the Marble, we won't necessarily have a rush to connect it up.


Do we have any thoughts on where we should be settling our second City for test game purposes?
 
Wow. Water to the north, water to the east, water to the south. I think we're on an island!
 
ZPV said:
Wow. Water to the north, water to the east, water to the south. I think we're on an island!
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I've been assuming an isolated start from teh beginning:
"...the voyage home is a long and treacherous one. He is of course caught at sea by vikings. They sack and burn the ship, leaving everyone for dead. After days or perhaps weeks at sea, praying to Shiva , Gandhi is washed up in a strange, hostile land.

Dazed, in darkness he stumbles inland, following a river, falling asleep on a river beach."​
I guess it doesn't say there literally, but one assumes that a strange and hostile land would be unmapped, therefore unknown, therefore separated from known lands and people.
 
ZPV said:
I think we're on an island!
Click to expand...
Neilmeister must be peeing his pants with laughter.

So, 4-Religion Cultural Victory anyone? Hindusim, Confucianism, Christianity, and Taoism...


Of course, just being on an island does not limit these possibilities:
a) having at least one AI on the same landmass
OR
b) having at least one AI reachable by Galleys
 
Okay, so for now, settling on the marble looks iffy, settling at deer 1E looks tantalizing. I suggest we run tests on settle deer-1E and maybe also on Marble. Settler first, worker first, any other variants someone wants to try. One signifcant consideration would be how SH and GW builds play into that. DO we need a 3rd city? Do we get it in time to store up hammers? Etc. FOcus on growth, hammers?

One bonus of this island is that it seems we might not need 5 fogbusters. That could mean more hammers into SH/GW. SO that leads to the question of masonry before TW/Pottery, after TW, affter Pottery?

On the warrior exploration path, we could go

1. T2 SE-SW (defogging all coastal tiles accessible by settling there),
2. T4 NW-NW-...till about T8, then backtrack, getting to Deer1E on T17.

I think that would give us about all the info we need on the southern half of our landmass, so we would be free to go settler first. So we just need to decide which seems better.
 
LowtherCastle said:
I've been assuming an isolated start from teh beginning:
"...the voyage home is a long and treacherous one. He is of course caught at sea by vikings. They sack and burn the ship, leaving everyone for dead. After days or perhaps weeks at sea, praying to Shiva , Gandhi is washed up in a strange, hostile land.

Dazed, in darkness he stumbles inland, following a river, falling asleep on a river beach."​
I guess it doesn't say there literally, but one assumes that a strange and hostile land would be unmapped, therefore unknown, therefore separated from known lands and people.
Click to expand...
But does "strange and hostile" mean the same thing as "not overly hospitable" babybluepants? :lol::p:mischief::crazyeye:
LowtherCastle said:
Okay, so for now, settling on the marble looks iffy, settling at deer 1E looks tantalizing. I suggest we run tests on settle deer-1E and maybe also on Marble. Settler first, worker first, any other variants someone wants to try. One signifcant consideration would be how SH and GW builds play into that. DO we need a 3rd city? Do we get it in time to store up hammers? Etc. FOcus on growth, hammers?

One bonus of this island is that it seems we might not need 5 fogbusters. That could mean more hammers into SH/GW. SO that leads to the question of masonry before TW/Pottery, after TW, affter Pottery?

On the warrior exploration path, we could go

1. T2 SE-SW (defogging all coastal tiles accessible by settling there),
2. T4 NW-NW-...till about T8, then backtrack, getting to Deer1E on T17.

I think that would give us about all the info we need on the southern half of our landmass, so we would be free to go settler first. So we just need to decide which seems better.
Click to expand...

I think we'll need at least The Wheel or Fishing before considering Masonry - I have a hunch we'll settle a coastal second city.
On that note, can you dial up the costs for a distance 5 city, LC (with that deer tile in mind)? It still has the 1/10 random spread chance (which decreases to 1/20 at distance 6).
 
Code: 
              cost(gpt)
              Dist=4             Dist=5
City1/city2   80x52     64x40    80x52     64x40
-----------   -----     -----    -----     -----
pop1/pop1       2         3        3         3
pop4/pop1       2         3        3         3

pop1/pop2       3         3        3         3
pop5/pop1       3         3        3         3
pop5/pop4       3         3        3         4
pop6/pop3       3         3        3         4
pop6/pop5       3         4        3         4

On barbarians. Our island looks to be less than 100 tiles, so there should be no chance of barb cities spawning. After Delhi's 3rd expansion, at 1barb/35UnownedTiles, we should have a max of 1 barb spawning on our island, which is still too many if it's an archer, so we'll probably want to have about 3 fogbusters, from the looks of it. That's less than needed to grow Delhi, I think, so there should be some time to build failed gold.
 
Totally off topic but you guys would be the ones to know.

Are the combat odds that are displayed in civ 4 bts 3.19 trust worthy? Does playing on emperor level change the odds and its not displayed correctly? I only ask because I've had multiple combats where a 99 + fractional % chance of success has failed. It seems to occur more often than when I was playing on Monarch
 
magnusmarcus said:
Totally off topic but you guys would be the ones to know.

Are the combat odds that are displayed in civ 4 bts 3.19 trust worthy? Does playing on emperor level change the odds and its not displayed correctly? I only ask because I've had multiple combats where a 99 + fractional % chance of success has failed. It seems to occur more often than when I was playing on Monarch
Click to expand...

Yeah, you can trust them. 99+% losses happen to me too - we fight an astonishing number of battles like that without really thinking about it. Sometimes the RNG just has you shooting blanks. :/
 
I was just going to request resource bubbles on.

So we have 9 rivals and 8 teams (not including ourselves), so each rival gets its own statistic on the demographics screen, is that right?
 
ZPV said:
But does "strange and hostile" mean the same thing as "not overly hospitable" babybluepants? :lol::p:mischief::crazyeye:
Click to expand...
I certainly hope so. :D
It doesn't look like it so far...
 
I expect to go worker first now, until someone convinces me otherwise with a test save.

Poly-Agri gives us plenty of time to scout the surroundings, so I think it would be useful to somehow decide on worker/settler relatively quickly and get on with it. By then we'll establish whether we're indeed isolated and whether we need extra techs like Hunting, AH or Fishing. I also have a feeling that Fishing will have to be slotted in.

I was intending to only play the first turn to get this going, so Mitchum is up next.
 
Got it.

I agree that we should go worker first and Polytheism -> Agriculture. I'm not opposed to switching from a partial worker to a settler should some pre-agreed location be found during our initial turns of exploration.

I plan to make a new test game. Standard-sized global highlands with all of the same game options as the real game. Any other settings you guys want to see?

beestar said:
So we have 9 rivals and 8 teams (not including ourselves), so each rival gets its own statistic on the demographics screen, is that right?
Click to expand...

Yes, the F8 screen shows 8 rivals left but the F9 demographics shows 9 individual AIs.
 
Any preference for these:

Mountain Pattern: Random, Scattered, Ridgelines, Clustered

Mountain Density: Random, Dense Peaks, Normal Peaks, Thin Peaks

Water Settings: Random, Small Lakes, Large Lakes, Seas
 
Mitchum: Scattered, Normal Peaks.
My Global Highlands scripts asks about landmass size instead of water features, and I think Normal Continents is most appropriate, with an islandlike area in the south edited into isolation.

edit: this is different to the Highlands script, which does ask about water, but doesn't match the real save very well.
 
OK. I'll use the Global Highlands script instead.

If we all agree on worker first, then we just need agreement on general warrior exploration. Or is settler first testing still needed?
 
Another thought is that sometimes map script settings that you cannot set can affect the map itself. In such a case, the setting that you used for the last map that you created where this setting was available will be used.

So, if there is a setting that Neilmeister mentioned in the original game description that you cannot set, then first go through the process of finding a different map type that allows you to set that property, set that property for the other map type, and then create said map. Your Civilization4.ini file (or some other settings file, I'm not 100% certain) should then have the right setting, which may get "blindly" used for the Global Highlands script (i.e. the setting could get used without letting you know that it gets used).
 
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