Expansion of the religion system and balance changes

So far nobody has really posted what they want to see done with religion.

Personally there is a lot of useless beliefs that need to be buffed up, we also need new beliefs to add on to such as.

+1 faith from jungle tiles
Conversion speed with trade routes to cities is doubled
Units built in religious cities receive Templar promotion which gives them 25% bonus against followers of a different religion

Then there would be new overall concepts such as forming trading routes with another Civilization would create spreading of beliefs.

1. Religion is very unlikely to be modified beause it's not the focus of religion

However

2. I do expect to see few new beliefs
3. Religion will spread faster along Internation Trade Routes (I believe from a Holy City).

TheKingOfBigOz said:

1. Religion is very unlikely to be modified beause it's not the focus of religion

However

2. I do expect to see few new beliefs
3. Religion will spread faster along Internation Trade Routes (I believe from a Holy City).

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This, this, and this.

Also, there is already a Pantheon that gives culture for Jungle tiles. They aren't going to do a +Faith for every terrain type.

They should add a handful of new religious symbols for more variety/historical accuracy.

I also think that there should be some new beliefs on all levels (Pantheon, Founder, Follower, and Enhancer), as well as some balancing/modification on existing beliefs.

Nothing major.

They need to add religion templates based around American religions. I realize that it's hard to generalize the Iroquois and Aztec mythologies under one generic religion, but they could throw in a Sun God or Mother Nature. How it is currently, with the the American civs always defaulting on Christianity is unacceptable.

Since the the Culture-related Piety Social Policies are presumably being moved into the new Aesthetics tree, we can expect at least some changes to Religion in the new policies that will fill out the empty spaces in Piety. And, as mentioned, International Trade Routes and Tourism are supposed to affect and be affected by the spread of Religion.

I would like to see Religion better integrated with the diplomatic system. Currently it's almost all negative: unless you're playing with an unusually large number of civilizations, nearly every major civ will develop its own religion, and even if it doesn't actively spread it, it will react negatively if you try to spread yours. It would be nice if there were sometimes situations in which another civilization will allow or even encourage the spread of your religion, or will try to seek permission to do the same (or ask you to convert voluntarily). Now that different religions have different characteristics, there's the potential for some interesting player choice there... but right now, the player doesn't really get to choose; you're pretty much stuck with whatever religion you found, and your only choice is whether or not to actively spread it and whether to actively resist the spread of other religions.

I think making this more interesting this would be best facilitated by allowing the player to manually choose a State Religion, as in Civ IV. You could choose any majority religion from any of your cities, and the status as State Religion could help the spread of that religion and hinder the spread of others (perhaps dependent on the Social Policies you've chosen). This would put player choice back in the equation, and give you something important to haggle over with other civilizations.

It would require some changes in the Religion interface, as currently each Religion is inexorably tied to a specific civilization. Allowing the player to switch State Religions will probably mean having to allow a civilization to be in control of more than one religion, which I think is a good thing. Some civilizations did found more than one religion, and if you conquer a different Holy City and want to convert to that religion, this should be an option. This would also make Holy Cities more important; taking a Holy City could give you control of that religion, but only if you make it your State Religion.

I would also like to see more available icons/names for religions to found, which would be very easy to add.

Change Pilgrimage to +1 tourism for every 5 followers of your religion IMO

moysturfurmer said:

Change Pilgrimage to +1 tourism for every 5 followers of your religion IMO

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I hope that one is a given. A very appropriate belief for the new tourism mechanic.

I hope for the possibility to adjust the number of religions to be founded and a more important role of religion during the game.

Starting a game where too many religions are allowed doesn't create the kind of 'scramble' for other civs that I would have liked to see. Like for example a max of four in a game with 12 civs, and where civs with the same religion actually support in expanding it; perhaps giving the option where a leader might ask if you could spread your religion to them, or that they will try to prevent your missionaries converting your cities? And having civs deciding how seriously they take religion would also create some more diversity (I for example like the 'You follow a different religion' negative modifier from Into the Renaissance scenario)

And of course more religious symbols, preferable expanding to those related most to the included civs in the game. Its just biting when Ethiopia is founding Christianity or Babylon founding Islam. Might not involve the gameplay but that also adds to the flavor.

Bakspatel said:

I hope for the possibility to adjust the number of religions to be founded and a more important role of religion during the game.

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Agreed, maximum number of religions should be a slider like number of city-states.

Bakspatel said:

Its just biting when Ethiopia is founding Christianity

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From Wikipedia:

Ethiopia has close historical ties with all three of the world's major Abrahamic religions. In the 4th century, the region was one of the first in the world to officially adopt Christianity as the state religion. While no longer distinguished as a state religion, it remains the majority faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia

As far as bigger changes are concerned: I always thought you should be able to expend a Great Prophet to create an offshoot of a religion you didn't found. Say Elizabeth founds Buddhism and picks Ceremonial Burial, Mosques, Cathedrals and Religious Texts. I think if a Great Prophet is born in the Buddhist city of New York, it should be allowed to create American Buddhism and choose a new follower belief. So instead of Cathedrals, American Buddhism can have Guruship or something. The founder belief would still apply to Elizabeth, but Washington is able to get rid of the redundant faith building bonus for a bonus of his own. While it might not be a game-changer, it gives non-religion focused players agency in the religion meta-game.

U know so u can get stuff like Pure-land vs Zen Buddhism or Catholicism vs Orthodoxy

I think Firaxis could at least add some new religions. It's no big deal after all, it's basically creating new icons. It would be nice to see some african (like Akan, Odinani, Serer, Yorubic) or african related religions (Rastafarianism). With Brazil in the game, it could also be added religions like Spiritism or Umbanda. Besides, there is also some other religions or proto-religions like Wicca, Druidism and etc.

Eagle Pursuit said:

From Wikipedia:

Ethiopia has close historical ties with all three of the world's major Abrahamic religions. In the 4th century, the region was one of the first in the world to officially adopt Christianity as the state religion. While no longer distinguished as a state religion, it remains the majority faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia

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Indeed. Christianity for Ethiopia makes perfect sense.

Now the Aztecs founding Christianity is another case entirely.

On the subject of maximum religions allowed, I wouldn't mind if only half of the religions founded are able to Enhance. I think each civilization should be allowed to found a religion with a Pantheon, Founder, and 1 Follower belief, but that a race should be on to Enhance your religion with an additional Follower belief and an Enhancer.

The religions that fail to Enhance would reflect the religions of the modern world that exist peripherally, their influence having waned over time.

Real life example: Christianity is enhanced, Zoroastrianism is not (yes, I realize Zoroastrianism has a large number of adherents, but it is indisputably smaller than Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.).

I really hope there are a bunch of changes to founder/follower beliefs and pantheons. The religion system seems so imbalanced to me most game.

-Get Tithe
-Spread the religion fast enough
-Win the game

(of course that is a complete generalization but nothing is worth taking over tithe)

I also completely agree with Aroich. In games I go without founding a religion, there should be a reason for me to want a religion to spread to my lands.

synulia said:

How it is currently, with the the American civs always defaulting on Christianity is unacceptable.

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I completely agree with this. I've modded my own game so that one of the religions is called "Totemism" and is the default for the Native American civs. It's a far cry from satisfactory, but it's a lot better than making them default to Christianity.

i must say, i am a bit irritated on how the religions are improved in civ 5.
ofc it is nice to have an additional use for GPs, but it's basically an upgrade system that is completely unrelated to the religion mechanic itself (belief, spread).
i personally just improve my religion and let the game do the rest. usually my civ benefits from it without me having to put in additional effort into it.

i think it might be beneficial to improve a religion based on how far it is spread out (the GP requiry could be kept on top of it). that way you could allow every nation to have a religion/pantheon, but only those who actively spread it are allowed to have greater benefits from it.