[Vote] (6-24) Abode of Peace / Orthodoxy Change

[axatin]

Current Abode of Peace:
+1 Gold and Faith in Holy City for every 2 followers of this Religion in City-States.
Your resting point for Influence with City-States following your Religion is increased by 35, and their Quest rewards are increased by 25%.

Current Orthodoxy:
Religion spreads to Cities 25% further away.
Pressure doubled to friendly City-States, and tripled to foreign Cities connected via Trade Routes.
(Note: these modifiers stack additively, which means pressure to friendly CS with trade route is +300%, or 26 in Standard speed, assuming no other modifiers.)

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Proposal (6-24):
Proposed Abode of Peace:
+1 Gold, +1 Faith for every 10 followers in foreign cities
+20% rewards from City-State quests
+35 minimum Influence with City-States following this religion
-25% religious spread from other religions to City-States following this religion (both active and passive spread)

Rationale: I believe the original proposal [not sponsored] is going the wrong way in buffing the player's active spread only. This is unfair to civilizations like India who rely on passive spread. I believe the better way to do it is to lower other religion's spread to City-States who already follow your religion, both active and passive spread. -25% only, as -50% would be way too strong. The +35 minimum influence vs minimum influence of 35 is to make the bonus stack with other bonuses, such as Siam's UA, Pledge of Protection, and others.

Original Thread: Abode of Peace - Buff to Influence and Protection from Other Religions' Pressure by @DoveCDog

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Proposal (6-24a):
Proposed Abode of Peace:
+1 Gold and Faith in Holy City for every 2 followers of this Religion in City-States.
+100% Religious Pressure to friendly City-States.
Your resting point for Influence with City-States following your Religion is increased by 35, and their Quest rewards are increased by 25%.

Proposed Orthodoxy:
Religion spreads to Cities 40% further away.
+100% Religious Pressure to friendly City-States.
+200% Religious Pressure to foreign Cities connected via Trade Routes

Rationale: Orthodoxy trades direct yields for passive spread power. First actively spread to a group of CS, and they will form a stronghold of pressure source on each other and nearby cities, which can be hard to remove if left alone for a while. Combined with trade routes, this belief can let your pressure convert non-founders and irritate founders so they need to waste faith on deconversion.

Specifically increasing pressure to CS is out of place for a belief that wants to uniformly spread to everyone though, and more in place with Abode of Peace, which needs this kind of bonus to stay effective.

Pressure graph (assuming 20 max trade route distance):
y-axis: pressure
x-axis: trade route distance
Red line: No Orthodoxy - 20 max pressure distance
Blue line: Current Orthodoxy - 25 max pressure distance (no trade route)
Green line: Proposed Orthodoxy - 28 max pressure distance (no trade route)
Red dotted line: Proposed Abode of Peace against CS (no trade route)
Blue dotted line: Current Orthodoxy against CS (no trade route)
Purple line: No Orthodoxy, has trade route
Purple dotted line: Proposed Abode of Peace against CS, has trade route
Not shown: Orthodoxy (current or proposed), has trade route - 19.5 pressure
Not shown: Current Orthodoxy against CS, has trade route - 26 pressure

The overall power of Orthodoxy shouldn't change much, and Abode of Peace would get a deserved buff.

Original thread: Abode of Peace and Orthodoxy tweaks by @azum4roll

 

[Solic]

I'm torn, because I like the second proposal, but I wish that it also included the +35 instead of 35 resting influence point that the first proposal has, which seems like a no brainer to me to include.

 

[azum4roll]

I'm torn, because I like the second proposal, but I wish that it also included the +35 instead of 35 resting influence point that the first proposal has, which seems like a no brainer to me to include.

What? There's no difference. It's how it currently works.

 

[Anarcomu]

I honestly fail to understand the difference between "resting point", and "minimum point". They just look the same. Unless minimum prevents you to go under -25 influence ? In which case it looks like an inferior version of resting points.

 

[pineappledan]

@Solic You're confusing a slight change in verbiage for an actual balance change. Neither proposal is suggesting that part of the belief be changed.

Personally, I think if you have 4 abilities on the same belief then the belief is badly designed. No belief needs to be so bloated that it needs 4 abilities; you should choose a max of 3 and make them strong enough that you don't have to engage in this feature gore.

I like 6-29a the best because it moves 1 of Orthodoxy's 4 different spread bonuses (not listed in the OP is that it makes passive spread further away AND stronger). However, I reduces Orthodoxy to 3 abilities by making AoP have 4, so we're in the same place.
6-29 is new DLL code (harder), and creates 1 more 4-ability belief (bloated). Both are bad.
If this new ability is added, I would drop the 20% quest rewards from AoP. Move that somewhere else maybe?

 

[Solic]

The +35 minimum influence vs minimum influence of 35 is to make the bonus stack with other bonuses, such as Siam's UA, Pledge of Protection, and others.

I meant this line, which seems to imply to me that currently resting influence is just set at a static 35 with abode of peace and not taken into addition to any potential other resting influence boosts like Pledge of Protection or Great Diplomat's boost in resting influence.

If it is already working in addition to other resting influence modifiers then consider my prior comment withdrawn.

 

[Anarcomu]

All sources of resting points for influence stack as far as I know

 

[Zuizgond]

Religion spreads to Cities 40% further away.

That seems a lot, especially if you're playing a pangea-type map and you start in the middle.

 

[azum4roll]

Caravansary makes religion spread 50% further via land. People don't build it.

 

[hokath]

I meant this line, which seems to imply to me that currently resting influence is just set at a static 35 with abode of peace and not taken into addition to any potential other resting influence boosts like Pledge of Protection or Great Diplomat's boost in resting influence.

If it is already working in addition to other resting influence modifiers then consider my prior comment withdrawn.

That's also how I read it. However, if that were the case I would consider it a bug to be fixed.