Israel In BNW?

Should Israel be included as a civ in BNW?

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Stonecutter9

Rex Michiganensis
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This thread is meant to encompass the inclusion of Israel in CiV's Brave New World's expansion pack. The thread is intended as a forum for debate on the historical merit of Israel as a civilization, in both its ancient and modern reincarnations, as well as a suggestion box for what UU, UB/UI, UA, leader, colors, capital, etc.

EDIT: I must say I disagree with the idea of Israel as a civ, they had an immense cultural impact but I think that throughout history they lacked temporal power and they were mostly pushed around by anyone nearby.
 
I think it's perfect the way it is now - as a city-state.
What I mean is that if you look at news, it's like a hotly contested religilous city-state, America gifting it units and gaining faith points, and enemies ready to devour it. I'm not being political but I like it that way, same with some other city-states as well that I think work better as a CS.

Otherwise I think Israel would have cool options for uniques, everything from religion to espionage to military. I just think it's a good as a city-state in the game.
 
Haig said:
I think it's perfect the way it is now - as a city-state.
What I mean is that if you look at news, it's like a hotly contested religilous city-state, America gifting it units and gaining faith points, and enemies ready to devour it. I'm not being political but I like it that way, same with some other city-states as well that I think work better as a CS.

Otherwise I think Israel would have cool options for uniques, everything from religion to espionage to military. I just think it's a good as a city-state in the game.
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Well said. This is pretty much how I feel about it.

I think if Israel was going to be included it should've been done under G&K not BNW. It fits so much better with the G&K theme than the BNW theme.
 
'Israel' is a vague term that implies a polity.

Do you mean the Israelites (ancient Hebrew civilization) or the Israelis (descendents of the former through the Diaspora tracing back to the Kingdom of Judah)? It's not really correct to consider them the same civilization (in my opinion).

The former is the only civilization that warrants inclusion, and I don't think that it would spark any controversy from Arab nations. I view the Israelites very much like I view the Sumerians; neither were very expansionist in their day (beyond their core expansion), but their influence on other civilizations since they came and went has been remarkable.
 
Stonecutter9 said:
The thread is intended as a forum for debate on the historical merit of Israel as a civilization, in both its ancient and modern reincarnations.
Click to expand...

This wasn't intended as a polity :lol: , I would consider ancient and modern Israel very different, but Civ has a penchant for polities. Furthermore, I would really only consider the ancient state, but I think it wasn't powerful enough to be considered a 'civilization'.
 
Don't have too much to say, except that I'm interested in the inclusion of Israel and that I think this would make an absolutely awesome leader screen:

Spoiler :


Would be cool, no? Imagine it without all of the people of course.
 
Sikandar said:
'Israel' is a vague term that implies a polity.

Do you mean the Israelites (ancient Hebrew civilization) or the Israelis (descendents of the former through the Diaspora tracing back to the Kingdom of Judah)? It's not really correct to consider them the same civilization (in my opinion).

The former is the only civilization that warrants inclusion, and I don't think that it would spark any controversy from Arab nations. I view the Israelites very much like I view the Sumerians; neither were very expansionist in their day (beyond their core expansion), but their influence on other civilizations since they came and went has been remarkable.
Click to expand...

It's at least as valid as grouping Scotland in with all Celts IMO.
 
I was expecting to see Israel in Gods and Kings, they seemed to fit the theme so well ... I still want them, but not in BNW, maybe in a DLC.
 
Sikandar said:
'Israel' is a vague term that implies a polity.

Do you mean the Israelites (ancient Hebrew civilization) or the Israelis (descendents of the former through the Diaspora tracing back to the Kingdom of Judah)? It's not really correct to consider them the same civilization (in my opinion).
Click to expand...

What's peculiar to me is that if I suggest Italy as a civilization, people have no problem dismissing the idea because Italy to them is just a continuation of Rome. Despite Rome having a very well-known point of demarcation where the empire fell. Despite marked differences between the type of civilization Rome was versus the type of civilization Italy would be (short/wide domination versus tall/small culture).

But mention Israel, and some will argue there are two distinct civ's. The Fall of Rome is not a significant divider, but the Diaspora is, it would seem.

Consider that we have an Ethiopia with a modern leader and modern rifleman, but their UB is a throwback to the ancient kingdom of Axium. I think Israel could be handled in a similar manner, with one unique from ancient Israel and the other from the modern state.
 
steveg700 said:
What's peculiar to me is that if I suggest Italy as a civilization, people have no problem dismissing the idea because Italy to them is just a continuation of Rome. Despite Rome having a very well-known point of demarcation where the empire fell. Despite marked differences between the type of civilization Rome was versus the type of civilization Italy would be (short/wide domination versus tall/small culture).

But mention Israel, and some will argue there are two distinct civ's. The Fall of Rome is not a significant divider, but the Diaspora is, it would seem.

Consider that we have an Ethiopia with a modern leader and modern rifleman, but their UB is a throwback to the ancient kingdom of Axium. I think Israel could be handled in a similar manner, with one unique from ancient Israel and the other from the modern state.
Click to expand...

Italy isn't a continuation of Rome though. 'Roman' was not a label pointing to Latin ethnicity by the time of the Empire; it was just a designation of citizenship. The Italians are as much a part of Germanic lineage as the French or the Spanish. I would support the Italians being in the game (with an emphasis on the Middle Ages).

Also I don't know what you are referring to by short/wide and tall/small.
 
Liex said:
I was expecting to see Israel in Gods and Kings, they seemed to fit the theme so well ... I still want them, but not in BNW, maybe in a DLC.
Click to expand...

Let them be in a DLC,specially because it wouldn't be that hard to draw some scenarios for them;
 
steveg700 said:
What's peculiar to me is that if I suggest Italy as a civilization, people have no problem dismissing the idea because Italy to them is just a continuation of Rome. Despite Rome having a very well-known point of demarcation where the empire fell. Despite marked differences between the type of civilization Rome was versus the type of civilization Italy would be (short/wide domination versus tall/small culture).

But mention Israel, and some will argue there are two distinct civ's. The Fall of Rome is not a significant divider, but the Diaspora is, it would seem.

Consider that we have an Ethiopia with a modern leader and modern rifleman, but their UB is a throwback to the ancient kingdom of Axium. I think Israel could be handled in a similar manner, with one unique from ancient Israel and the other from the modern state.
Click to expand...

We're getting into politics again here i worry, but as a means of explaining the difference in situation...

Italians are for the large part descended from Romans and share a core homeland with them (more or less).
Israeli history is more complex... Palestinians share more heritage with the Israelites than the Jews of the diaspora. Not all the Jews were uprooted, and those who left for Europe became essentially European in both culture and to some extent genetics. When in Rome... Romans look fine ;)

So modern Israel is essentially an entirely different construct to ancient Israel/Judea. Israel as a concept and culture essentially became extinct, and now there is an attempt at reviving it. Modern Israel is to ancient Israel as the Holy Roman Empire is to Rome(ish).

I'm sorry if this is getting too political, but this thread is literally picking apart the reasons for including Israel, so it can't be avoided :( I'm sorry moderators!
 
I voted no. However, I do think it should be in a DLC like Babylon or Inca was. This way people who want Israel or the Hebrews can have it while the people who don't can still get the BNW updates. Everyone wins.
 
I voted for Israel because I really want a civ that can be guaranteed to found a religion, stay very tall, and have bonus to espionage later (Mossad) with an ancient UU (Mecabbe) and a modern UU. There isn't a combination like that so far.
 
JanghanHong said:
I voted for Israel because I really want a civ that can be guaranteed to found a religion, stay very tall, and have bonus to espionage later (Mossad) with an ancient UU (Mecabbe) and a modern UU. There isn't a combination like that so far.
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Yeah, that's about what I would want from them too. The modern UU would probably be Merkava.

To me, they work well as a good choice for DLC if there's any concerns about controversy.
 
Louis XXIV said:
Yeah, that's about what I would want from them too. The modern UU would probably be Merkava.

To me, they work well as a good choice for DLC if there's any concerns about controversy.
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Eh, forget about "controversy". Who's going to be mad? Some extremists? I guess that the Palestinians might be upset, but I suspect that Firaxis isn't too worried about sales numbers there anyway.

That said, why Israel? Why would a civilization called Israel (or Hebrews or Judea) be better than the Jerusalem city-state that we already have? Was Israel really a powerful, influential, or otherwise remarkable civilization in its time? Do we know enough about it (outside of religious texts)? If not for the Abrahamic faiths, would anyone care about Israel? Would it even exist today? And who would lead it?

When I look at the other civilizations in the game, they all had more to offer than being the holy city for some religion. Jerusalem makes great sense as a city-state. I voted no.
 
Additionally, what kind of UA would it have, what about unique buildings and units?
 
Menzies said:
Additionally, what kind of UA would it have, what about unique buildings and units?
Click to expand...


Israel

Desert Bias,

UA:
+50% Faith, +50% Against enemy spy efficiency in the capital. 25% discount when purchasing great person with faith.

UU1: Maccabbe

Swordman replacement, Free Shock (+15% strength on flat terrain), Cities taken with Maccabbe have 50% of converting to your religion.


UU2: Merkava

Mechanized Infantry replacement, Free March (Unit heals +15hp even when it performs an action), +1 movement



I'd like to do an OCC where I spam holy sites around my capital, and use the faith generated to purchase units and great persons. I also want to use as much Maccabbes as I can muster with the iron I have, upgrading them until Merkava with enough promotions to defend my capital with much less units than my big scary neighbors.
 
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