Most disappointing wonder?

InsanelyApple said:

How about the Juche Tower in Pyongyang?

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Well one argument you could make for Prora is it received about as many tourists as the hotel and tower in pyongyang combined

the number being zero is besides the point

I'm glad they included Prora. Hopefully its inclusion indicates that we might get an official WWII scenario.

I can tell you why we have prora: Firaxis already chose the kremlin to represent Order/communism, whereas having the Motherland Calls represent Autocracy would mean two Soviet wonders. They wanted to have wonders built by the three main countries representing the three ideologies (USA, USSR, Germany) rather than the wonder itself. Can you guys think of a 18th, 19th or 20th century wonder built by an autocracy that doesn't have much at all to do with Hitler? I'm sure if Hitler were given ten more years he could've arranged something better than Prora, but luckily his reign of terror ended.

I think the Volkshalle would have been an awesome addition. This game has Fountain of Youth, El Dorado, and Giant Death Robo, the fact that it was never completed is not a valid argument against it, at least it was a real project.

crawf0rd said:

I can tell you why we have prora: Firaxis already chose the kremlin to represent Order/communism, whereas having the Motherland Calls represent Autocracy would mean two Soviet wonders. They wanted to have wonders built by the three main countries representing the three ideologies (USA, USSR, Germany) rather than the wonder itself. Can you guys think of a 18th, 19th or 20th century wonder built by an autocracy that doesn't have much at all to do with Hitler? I'm sure if Hitler were given ten more years he could've arranged something better than Prora, but luckily his reign of terror ended.

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At least it doesn't look run-down

Used for Nazi mass rallies during the Third Reich

(Ultimately despite bashing it I'm fine with Prora actually. Lot of neat history behind that despite its appearance. Just sayin' they weren't short on options)

crawf0rd said:

I can tell you why we have prora: Firaxis already chose the kremlin to represent Order/communism, whereas having the Motherland Calls represent Autocracy would mean two Soviet wonders. They wanted to have wonders built by the three main countries representing the three ideologies (USA, USSR, Germany) rather than the wonder itself. Can you guys think of a 18th, 19th or 20th century wonder built by an autocracy that doesn't have much at all to do with Hitler? I'm sure if Hitler were given ten more years he could've arranged something better than Prora, but luckily his reign of terror ended.

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I mentioned the Juche Tower.

InsanelyApple said:

I mentioned the Juche Tower.

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But Juche Tower is not German

They wanted something representing each major power's ideology during that time

(Also, Juche Tower looks too much like a more famous wonder built before it:
)

Prora was planned by the KdF-movement, which belongs to the Nazi Regime, but isn't Nazi by itself, but rather stems from the German Sport Movement starting with Friedrich Jahn and being popular in the early 1900's. It isn't really a Nazi wonder either.

And yes, look through the thread here and you'll find quite a few proposals for wonder. For Germany only (if we accept nationalistic undemocratic regimes as Autocracies) I can think of the Victory Column in Berlin, the Arminius Statue in the Teutoburg Forest as well as The Bayreuth Festivals (aka Richard Wagner, the known Anti-Semite, Theatre Festivals).

All of them can be connected to a Tourism effect as well btw. ...

The Motherland Calls btw. wasn't supposed to be the Autocracy wonder, it was always Order.

I don't mind Prora at all but I think the Reichssportfeld that was constructed for the '36 Berlin Olympics (and specially equipped to allow for the filming Olympia) would have been a lot more interesting. However, I'd also lobby for DLC down the line to tweak it so that each ideology can get two exclusive wonders (which could permit for the addition of Motherland Calls as another Order wonder, Reichssportfeld as another Autocracy, and either a new wonder or an already existing one made exclusive to Freedom).

If the Autobahn proved to be too problematic, then they should have gone with Zeppelinfeld.

Why exactly is everyone hating on Prora?

After reading Prora's effects (The Eiffel Tower's old bonus + a free policy ie happiness bonus) I fail to see how this wonder is connected with tourism as some have suggested in this thread. There is no tourism or cultural bonus from this wonder, its all happiness. This is fine since a war monger needs happiness to help with all of those occupied cities, but its strange to think a hotel wonder wouldn't improve tourism or culture in some way.

I think the Luitpoldarena (where the Nuremberg Rallys were held) or the Reichssportfeld (as Polish Redneck suggested) would make more sense with the bonus since big rallies (which occurred at both locations) center on ideological propaganda to boost citizen contentment.

I know, I know...most wonders don't really match their bonuses, but I think most people find Prora an odd choice and I find even odder since there is no reason to choose a nazi hotel as a wonder when the bonus has nothing to do with tourism and culture.

Personally, I think Autocracy could have a wonder that has numerous slots for 'stolen' great works. Autocracy is about domination and a new aspect of domination is the taking of great works, something the Nazi's did in spades. Sadly, I don't really know of a specific wonder that would fit this game mechanic :/

I could see May Day Stadium being a better wonder. Too bad Firaxis insists on using Nazi buildings.

Kurtbob said:

After reading Prora's effects (The Eiffel Tower's old bonus + a free policy ie happiness bonus) I fail to see how this wonder is connected with tourism as some have suggested in this thread. There is no tourism or cultural bonus from this wonder, its all happiness. This is fine since a war monger needs happiness to help with all of those occupied cities, but its strange to think a hotel wonder wouldn't improve tourism or culture in some way.

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Shoot. I could've sworn it gets a + x % tourism effect. After all, Autocracy can't all be about conquest... But as your last sentence shows, I'm excused to make this mistake...

How about a version of the poll that excludes Prora and Motherland Calls to allow discussion of other options?

For instance, I can see why Broadway gets quite a few votes, but why Borudbodur with 7? Is it just the mechanical effect? I can't see a reason for arguing that it doesn't deserve Wonder status as an artefact.

At the same time, given there's so much discussion of Motherland, apparently removed in favour of the Red Fort that replaces an existing effect, why so few votes for the Fort? Or for the Globe and Uffizi? I certainly wouldn't say Uffizi is an obvious choice for a Wonder, and seems to be based wholly on mechanical need (something other than The Louvre to hold Great Works)

Then there's the ISS - conversely to Borodbodur, is interest in this driven by the interesting mechanic? As I noted, as an accomplishment it's political more than it is technical, which would fall outside my criteria for a Wonder.

PhilBowles said:

For instance, I can see why Broadway gets quite a few votes, but why Borudbodur with 7? Is it just the mechanical effect? I can't see a reason for arguing that it doesn't deserve Wonder status as an artefact.

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Judging by the comments I think it has to do with the gameplay mechanics. I don't think anybody here actually doubts its worthiness as a wonder

If they just wanted something to represent fascism in general, there was always this cartoon villain hideout:


Actually, of all the suggestions made here, I would most support the Volkshalle. It was pointed out that Prora is insignificant because fascism lost, and that it would have been more important had fascism stuck around. But if it had played out that way, the Volkshalle, had it ever actually gotten built, would have been an even more imposing, more awe-inspiring, and doubtless more famous structure than Prora. As was also pointed out, we don't know for sure that the Hanging Gardens ever really existed, so including a Wonder that was planned, and that probably would have existed if the regime that wanted it had survived, is fine by me. I think the Volkshalle would have been a better symbol for Autocracy than Prora. I know noth-ing about creating my own mods, but I hope someone makes one that replaces Prora with the Volkshalle quickly, because I'd like to download it.

Yes, the italicized part there was a Hogan's Heroes joke. It seemed fitting.

Loaf Warden said:

Actually, of all the suggestions made here, I would most support the Volkshalle. It was pointed out that Prora is insignificant because fascism lost, and that it would have been more important had fascism stuck around. But if it had played out that way, the Volkshalle, had it ever actually gotten built, would have been an even more imposing, more awe-inspiring, and doubtless more famous structure than Prora. ... but I hope someone makes one that replaces Prora with the Volkshalle quickly, because I'd like to download it.

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I agree completely with the Volkshalle. I am also clueless when it comes to mods, so I will be hoping for one soon after release as well.

Just drop a request over at the modforum. These mods are simple, especially as one probably can reuse the Prora quote. It needs a new splashscreen and voila. It will lack a 3d model on the map / just reuse the Prora one. So you will not see a gigantic Dome over your city...

And yes, my vote for Borobodur was solemly based on the gameplay mechanic.
And yes, we need a new poll without those two options, but maybe add the changed ones in as well?

VermelhoRed said:

Why exactly is everyone hating on Prora?

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because it was never finished, or because it was built by Nazis and is ugly. Take your pick.