Most disappointing wonder?

[PhilBowles]

I always thought the Kremlin as St. Basil's mix-up was a developer injoke since it keeps happening. Not that it excuses the continued art mix-up I'd rather they get it right.

Maybe it's a homage to Rise of Nations, which apparently did the same thing?

 

[wigwam]

Didn't they, though? In all of those countries, the majority of the population has a decent grasp of English and many speak if fluently. American & English music, TV, movies, and fashion are extremely popular. They play our games. They eat our food. Their governments are structured similar to ours (or to the UK's). How have they not culture flipped?

I think in Civ 5 terms you'd say that most of those countries were puppeted by an Order civilization (Russia/the USSR) and then, fifty turns or so later, culture-flipped from Order to Freedom. As for Japan, West Germany, and Austria—maybe you could say they were puppeted for about ten turns, and then the US returned them to their original owners on the condition that they accept Freedom? Which probably isn't actually possible in BNW, but I'm just spitballing here.

My point is that it's not like there were spontaneous mass uprisings in those countries against their autocratic leaders (maybe arguably in Romania? I don't really know that story). Those governments were removed by external force or threat thereof (unless you consider the Partisans in Croatia an internal force, which is a whole other contentious kettle of fish). As Americans are fond of reminding (non-German) Europeans, "if it weren't for us, you'd all be speaking German right now!" But if the Germans had won the war and imposed the German language on everybody else, would we really call it a cultural victory? Did Vichy France culture flip, or was it just a bunch of puppet cities?

 

[WiseGreen]

I think in Civ 5 terms you'd say that most of those countries were puppeted by an Order civilization (Russia/the USSR) and then, fifty turns or so later, culture-flipped from Order to Freedom. As for Japan, West Germany, and Austria—maybe you could say they were puppeted for about ten turns, and then the US returned them to their original owners on the condition that they accept Freedom? Which probably isn't actually possible in BNW, but I'm just spitballing here.

My point is that it's not like there were spontaneous mass uprisings in those countries against their autocratic leaders (maybe arguably in Romania? I don't really know that story). Those governments were removed by external force or threat thereof (unless you consider the Partisans in Croatia an internal force, which is a whole other contentious kettle of fish). As Americans are fond of reminding (non-German) Europeans, "if it weren't for us, you'd all be speaking German right now!" But if the Germans had won the war and imposed the German language on everybody else, would we really call it a cultural victory? Did Vichy France culture flip, or was it just a bunch of puppet cities?

I can thin of at least two large-scale revolts against autocratic regimes in Europe - Revolução dos Cravos, which managed to oust Salazar in Portugal in 1974, and the Spanish Civil War, in which the left-wing dissidents were defeated by Franco (with more than a little help from nazi Germany and its Luftwaffe).

 

[Altisma]

I have to agree that the The Volskhalle would be the best choice for the Autocracy wonder. Then the Motherlands Call for the Order and Statue of Liberty for Freedom.

Even if the Volkshalle was never built some of the wonders we do build don't make sense either. The Sistine Chapel for example isn't a lone structure, its attached to the Apostolic Palace, Petra/Chichen Itza are cities, Hanging Gardens is a legend, and the Prora was never finished thus doesn't count as a actual wonder today though it does now apparently in-game.

 

[Bakspatel]

Didn't they, though? In all of those countries, the majority of the population has a decent grasp of English and many speak if fluently. American & English music, TV, movies, and fashion are extremely popular. They play our games. They eat our food. Their governments are structured similar to ours (or to the UK's). How have they not culture flipped?

* I'm not as familiar with Hungary (which has recently done some pretty bad things with regards to democracy and freedom!) and Croatia as I am with the others, so this might not apply to them. But given that there's almost no Hungarian/Croatian influence in the US, I find it hard to believe that we aren't more influential there than they are here. For the rest, this is obviously true.

** And obviously, those other countries still maintain parts of their own culture, as well. I'm not trying to claim that Japan is culturally equivalent to the US. But in game terms, we'd certainly be "influential" in these other countries and they almost certainly wouldn't have that level in the US.

I wouldn't give full credit to the USA. First, I would give a lot of credit to the UK. Because of their (former) empire English became a dominant language in the world, something that has been vastly strengthened by the USA due to its current dominance in the world.

Second it totally depends on that country's culture, its neighbours and its attitude across the border. If you take the Netherlands: we're a very adaptable country. My father for example works for Tata Steel: when they go to the factories in the UK they speak English, when they go for business to Germany they speak German. Most documentaries and all movies that are being broadcasted here are in their original language (mainly English) with subtitles (and in the past almost all cartoons were in English as well), a lot of products that are being sold here are also in English and most Universities give college in English - focusing on the international aspect and also trying to attract international students. Being able to communicate with others is considered important by a lot of Dutch and because English is sort of the lingua franca in the world a huge amount of the population has English as its second language. I think it was estimated about 86% a couple of years ago.
How different this is in for example France, where they take the effort of making up a French version of every new popular English word (they do not know words like email and hash-tag). Everything they do is in French, even up to the point that the number one complaint from French tourists in the Netherlands is the lack of enough Dutchmen that speak French. They just expect everyone to speak their language.

Governments in Europe aren't based on those of the USA, the one of the USA is partially based on those on Europe. I actually recall reading somewhere that the USA constitution and government has quite some bits in common with that what the Dutch Republic had. Although this couldn't be confirmed as fact, there were quite some similarities.
Most European governments are still based of those formed in the 19th century and that have been reformed/adjusted over time. I don't recall a European country that ever had the situation in where the majority would vote for a president but where the other guy actually takes office (Bush- Al Gore anyone?). Heck, we don't even get to choose our prime minister. After the war countries adopted their previous system and made adjustments if necessarily.
USA influence became big because A - people loved it being liberated. B - a common enemy: the Soviet union. With the USA as our big buddy standing behind our backs a new war in Europe was prevented and communism in western Europe was crushed to the point of never recovering.
The only valid point would be about movies and products, but you shouldn't underestimate the influence that other countries also have on the US. Like the Pizzeria on the corner that you pass by while driving in your Honda to the kebab store next to the Irish pub

 

[78stonewobble]

While I love how this expansion is much more closer to actual history than vainilla civ V, which had more of a "History channel: the game" type of vibe; it is kinda disappointing to see how they dropped the ball with the ideology related wonders.

The Motherland calls is a far, far better wonder for communism rather than "The Kremlin", and Prora.. urrrrrgggghhh. If they would have wanted some type of awe inspiring building related to nazism while avoiding its more horrible aspects, they could have opted for this instead:

The Volskhalle

Yes, it was never actually built, but this is quinquaessentially nazi architecture: megalomaniac, neoclassical, huge, iconic, designed by the poster child of nazi Architecture, Albert Speer, and undoubtely far more "wondrous" that a mere vacation complex.

Something related to the V2, me262 or type xxi (and later designs)? Something showing the technological prowess displayed by the german scientists (under the pressure of the war).

Well, basically the same kind of "desperation" was apparent on both sides during ww2 or later in the cold war.

Or they could they could have gone all the way with something showing the eerie efficiency and power of a completely mobilised nation (which wasn't really the case, but is a rather popular image either way).

PS: The autobahns (highways) are pretty obvious, but how about the old airport. Tempelhof right? Considering the time it pretty much was a wonder.

 

[Luziadus]

wait, prora is a wonder???!!!

 

[wigwam]

I can thin of at least two large-scale revolts against autocratic regimes in Europe - Revolução dos Cravos, which managed to oust Salazar in Portugal in 1974, and the Spanish Civil War, in which the left-wing dissidents were defeated by Franco (with more than a little help from nazi Germany and its Luftwaffe).

Portugal and Spain stayed neutral during World War 2, so they weren't relevant to my argument. Portugal is a good example of a real-life culture flip, though.

You've got Spain all backwards, however. The Civil War was not a large-scale revolt against an autocratic regime; it was the outcome of a partially successful coup against a democratically-elected government. The left—the Loyalists—weren't dissidents, they were fighting for the legitimate government of Spain. Franco tried to overthrow the government but was only able to seize control of part of the military and about half the country's territory, so civil war broke out.

 

[EgyptRaider]

Both Prora and the exlusion of the Motherland Calls are really a pity. Not that it's gonna ruin the fun of the game ofcourse but c'mon there are so many better buildings! The Volkshalle would be much more awesome than prora!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I find Prora and the Red Fort to be the most disappointing because their bonuses are just copies of the old Kremlin and the old Eiffel Tower.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

because it was never finished, or because it was built by Nazis and is ugly. Take your pick.

I've got another one:
I always liked to play culturally and therefore really liked the old Eiffel Tower. Now that the effect has been moved to Prora I won't be able to get that 10+ boost unless I adopt Autocracy.

From a gameplay perspective, I don't really like the new Kremlin. I very rarely build tanks or modern armor. That late into the game I usually upgrade or buy my units, but I'll probably still go for the Kremlin just for the free SoPol.

 

[General_Sahib]

"After hearing me and my wife discuss about this thread , my son decided to contribute with a wonder idea representing autocraty"

I for one fully agree with your son's highly informed choice of an alternative wonder. I recommend we transfer the shields generated during the failed construction of Motherland Calls directly to this new wonder and leave Prora well alone. And then we should use this brilliant new wonder during our spite-driven invasion of whoever beat us to Motherland Calls in the first place. In fact, I envisage that this new wonder will provide some form of military boost when attacking others purely out of revenge for an act of wonder-yoinking.

 

[Halcyan2]

I don't mind Prora.

I see it as more of a "what if" scenario if facism hadn't lost WWII. In a parallel reality, it could be extremely popular and famous!

To me, it is similar to the inclusion of civilizations like Polynesia/Shoshone/Brazil and being able to make wacky religions. It lets you write your own version of history.

 

[PhilBowles]

Governments in Europe aren't based on those of the USA, the one of the USA is partially based on those on Europe. I actually recall reading somewhere that the USA constitution and government has quite some bits in common with that what the Dutch Republic had.

Weren't the intellectual underpinnings of the US Constitution ultimately based on the works of Thomas Paine, an English writer who became an American citizen after the revolution? The Dutch Republic was an important model for European intellectuals of the time, so its relevance to the US system would make sense.

Although this couldn't be confirmed as fact, there were quite some similarities.
Most European governments are still based of those formed in the 19th century and that have been reformed/adjusted over time. I don't recall a European country that ever had the situation in where the majority would vote for a president but where the other guy actually takes office (Bush- Al Gore anyone?)

The British system works this way, since like the American one it's based on number of constituencies held rather than population (Bush beating Al Gore was perfectly legitimate within the context of the American system, since he did take more electoral votes). Since the majority of large constituencies in urban areas, which obviously hold more of the population than the rural ones, tend to vote Labour, most Conservative governments in recent history have had less of the popular vote than the other party. I believe the same was true of at least one of Blair's terms.

USA influence became big because A - people loved it being liberated. B - a common enemy: the Soviet union.

America was always going to become a major power - by the time of the First World War it was already the third greatest in the world (after Britain and Germany), due mainly to its capacity for mass production. And not everyone loved being liberated quite so much, at least in hindsight - the French still heavily resent the British and American bombings of Normandy. After WWII, America sailed to superpower status on the back of economic ties (lend-lease) and the fact that its major European counterparts had been substantially weakened.

 

[Luziadus]

America was always going to become a major power - by the time of the First World War it was already the third greatest in the world (after Britain and Germany), due mainly to its capacity for mass production. And not everyone loved being liberated quite so much, at least in hindsight - the French still heavily resent the British and American bombings of Normandy. After WWII, America sailed to superpower status on the back of economic ties (lend-lease) and the fact that its major European counterparts had been substantially weakened.

C- America received many Jews who fled from Europe through Portugal, and many of them were scientists, genius, bankers, etc but also got some nazi stuff.

 

[Kwami]

I wouldn't give full credit to the USA. First, I would give a lot of credit to the UK. Because of their (former) empire English became a dominant language in the world, something that has been vastly strengthened by the USA due to its current dominance in the world.

You misunderstand. I wasn't giving full credit to the US, though I do think that they deserve a rather large share of it. I was simply pointing out that the "west" won the culture war.

Second it totally depends on that country's culture, its neighbours and its attitude across the border. If you take the Netherlands: we're a very adaptable country. My father for example works for Tata Steel: when they go to the factories in the UK they speak English, when they go for business to Germany they speak German.

Of course, there are businessmen in the US that can speak multiple languages. Frequently, they don't have to. When I travel to Germany, I can speak English nearly anywhere. Indeed, I know some folks who live and work in Germany and who don't speak any German at all because English is just fine.

Most documentaries and all movies that are being broadcasted here are in their original language (mainly English) with subtitles (and in the past almost all cartoons were in English as well), a lot of products that are being sold here are also in English and most Universities give college in English - focusing on the international aspect and also trying to attract international students. Being able to communicate with others is considered important by a lot of Dutch and because English is sort of the lingua franca in the world a huge amount of the population has English as its second language. I think it was estimated about 86% a couple of years ago.
How different this is in for example France, where they take the effort of making up a French version of every new popular English word (they do not know words like email and hash-tag). Everything they do is in French, even up to the point that the number one complaint from French tourists in the Netherlands is the lack of enough Dutchmen that speak French. They just expect everyone to speak their language.

Yeah, but the French are silly in this regard. Despite their government-enforced French quotas, most of the people there speak English just fine.

Governments in Europe aren't based on those of the USA, the one of the USA is partially based on those on Europe. I actually recall reading somewhere that the USA constitution and government has quite some bits in common with that what the Dutch Republic had. Although this couldn't be confirmed as fact, there were quite some similarities.

My point was that the governments of the world have largely moved toward the "western" way of doing things. Constitutions, parliaments, presidents and prime ministers, elections. There are some notable exceptions (China), but the trend is clear and, I think irreversible. If we're looking at the ideology aspect of a cultural victory in Civ V, then Freedom surely won.

Most European governments are still based of those formed in the 19th century and that have been reformed/adjusted over time. I don't recall a European country that ever had the situation in where the majority would vote for a president but where the other guy actually takes office (Bush- Al Gore anyone?). Heck, we don't even get to choose our prime minister. After the war countries adopted their previous system and made adjustments if necessarily.

Yeah... I mean, for all the flaws in the US system, I still can't find one that's really better. So many European countries still have Kings of all things! One entire house of the British parliament is made up of unelected knights, peers, and religious figures. How absurd!

Nevertheless, the majority of the government is still elected and representative.

USA influence became big because A - people loved it being liberated. B - a common enemy: the Soviet union. With the USA as our big buddy standing behind our backs a new war in Europe was prevented and communism in western Europe was crushed to the point of never recovering.

I mean, we did kind of save Europe. But the US was on a clear path toward superpower status before then. Who was going to stop us? Canada?

The only valid point would be about movies and products, but you shouldn't underestimate the influence that other countries also have on the US. Like the Pizzeria on the corner that you pass by while driving in your Honda to the kebab store next to the Irish pub

Eh, there are far more American fast food stores throughout the world than there are Irish pubs! Anyway, I had never realized just how widespread our media was until I started traveling. American TV, music, and movies are everywhere. We get some foreign media here in the US (especially British rock music and Japanese anime), but it's not nearly on the same scale.

This is all off-topic and silly, though. The "west" won the culture war and Prora is lame. Motherland Calls forever!

 

[Buccaneer]

Not that it means anything relating to gameplay but I hate the thought that Motherland Calls and Prora would be in the game. Such despicable systems.

 

[wigwam]

On top of everything, does anybody else think that Prora has the ugliest, most half-assed icon in the entire game?

 

[VainoValkea]

The Motherland Calls is a great statue, and would've suited Order far better than The Kremlin. So I voted for that.

Prora has been discussed to exhaustion already, so I'll instead focus on Borobudur that surprised me positively. It's a great way to kickstart a late religion, I noticed.

 

[killmeplease]

I suppose they needed an Autocracy wonder- but why not the Palazzo Della Civilta Italiana? Not Prora...

Still, it doesn't really matter. Game still looks awesome.

it would be great! looks much more like a wonder, very impressive.
and im not mad about prora too. its not a great choise but ok.

On top of everything, does anybody else think that Prora has the ugliest, most half-assed icon in the entire game?

its just what it looks like IRL