Defensive Pacts: Secret or Not?

Aristos · Oct 11, 2013

We are having an interesting debate in the Steam Workshop about this, and about the possibility of displaying information about DPs between third parties (two civs that are not the player).

As far as I now, DPs are supposed to be secret pacts, and therefore should not be displayed by any mod if we want to preserve the originally designed Fog of War. Some people are claiming that the new DoW popup is showing this info, but I cannot find any sign of that inside the popup code, and I do not remember seeing that type of info displayed (not in the popup nor as a notification).

Can somebody, the more the better, confirm either of these possibilities?

Talcove · Oct 11, 2013

I'm pretty sure it shows up in one of the diplomacy screens. It's good that way. I've always seen Defensive Pacts as sort of a way of telling other, more warmongering, Civilizations, "Hey, you messin with them, you messin with me!". Basically to serve as a warning not to pick on a particular ally.

Aristos · Oct 11, 2013

Talcove said:
I'm pretty sure it shows up in one of the diplomacy screens. It's good that way. I've always seen Defensive Pacts as sort of a way of telling other, more warmongering, Civilizations, "Hey, you messin with them, you messin with me!". Basically to serve as a warning not to pick on a particular ally.

Can you specifically point to the diplomacy window you are referring to please?

CaptainPatch · Oct 11, 2013

I think that he is referring to the Global Diplomacy tab (right-side selection) of the Diplomacy Detail panel. It's the same screen that shows who is Friends with who, who was Denounced by who, etc.

I don't believe that DPs should be secret. They are DEFENSE pacts after all; not alliances. Someone attacks either party means that someone is not just attacking the one pact member, but both of them. Keep the pact secret, and the attacker doesn't know this beforehand -- which makes him just as likely to invade anyway. But if he knows that if he attacks one, he will be going to war with both, that would make him less inclined to start a war.

The Defense Pact is a war deterrent, discouraging opponents from going to war with either pact member. Sort of like a Doomsday Device -- remember Dr. Strangelove? If no one knows you have it, they have no reason to NOT invade you. If they know it's there, they're VERY motivated to NOT invade.

Aristos · Oct 11, 2013

CaptainPatch said:
I think that he is referring to the Global Diplomacy tab (right-side selection) of the Diplomacy Detail panel. It's the same screen that shows who is Friends with who, who was Denounced by who, etc.

I don't believe that DPs should be secret. They are DEFENSE pacts after all; not alliances. Someone attacks either party means that someone is not just attacking the one pact member, but both of them. Keep the pact secret, and the attacker doesn't know this beforehand -- which makes him just as likely to invade anyway. But if he knows that if he attacks one, he will be going to war with both, that would make him less inclined to start a war.

The Defense Pact is a war deterrent, discouraging opponents from going to war with either pact member. Sort of like a Doomsday Device -- remember Dr. Strangelove? If no one knows you have it, they have no reason to NOT invade you. If they know it's there, they're VERY motivated to NOT invade.

Just checked the code for that window, and there is no provision to show DPs between third parties, the code only shows DPs between the human player and another civ; which is the behaviour I remember for that window.

I know the "philosophical" debate about DPs is subjective; the real questions are:

1) Do we show them even if the base game is designed to consider them secret?

2) Does the AI have knowledge of the DPs, and does it take into account that knowledge, when deciding to increase its APPROACH_WAR likelihood? I have looked into the code and did not found any sign of the AI using this knowledge (DPs of its potential target). I can check again, or if anyone has specific proof, please point to it.

Defensive Pacts: Secret or Not?

Aristos

Lightseeker

Talcove

Slayer of Spies

Aristos

Lightseeker

CaptainPatch

Lifelong gamer

Aristos

Lightseeker

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