Assyria underpowered?

I'm trying to give every BNW civ a chance but I just don't get Assyria. I see when he pops as another civ in my games and usually only has one city, maybe up to 4 (guessing tall is the way to go?) and hopelessly backward.

I decided to give it a shot myself and that library isn't really that helpful. The lag between when you start getting great writers and other GPs is pretty long and it doesn't seem to do much for me. The siege looks good but haven't had a chance to use it. The unique ability should lend itself to an aggressive ruler who conquers other civs but in my other games he's done almost nothing. What am I missing? Should you go wide?

AI likely doesn't know how to properly use uniques, as it is in many cases.
In player's hands it's quite a nice civilization, at least in my experience. Actually, my first Domination victory was with Assyria (that was on King, but when I moved to higher difficulties I noticed that the UA and UU are even more useful). My strategy was pretty much beelining Mathematics and Construction (I didn't research Wirting until then, though it could work even better) and then DoWing one or two nearby civs and crushing with Siege Towers and Composite Bowmen. When I got my wonders and technologies from wars I started growing and only continued conquest when artillery was around - but that was a Continents map and those two leaders were my only neighbours.
Basically, Assyria gives a great start, but its uniques don't really matter in late game, unless you just beeline a faraway tech and get the others with the UA (AI tends to balance its technologies and try to complete earlier eras before moving on).

Assyria has siege towers! They are massively powerful.

Assyria strategy:

1) Build a couple siege towers
2) Victory

Assyria can only really shine when it has land access to the other civs early, though as NoOneImportant points out even on Continents you can compound on your early warmongering to be powerful by the time Astonomy comes in. (Remember that you only get the warmongering dip penalty with civs who were in contact with you or your victims...)

That said, this is one of the reasons I tend to play a lot on Terra maps because they give almost every civ a chance to shine with their uniques. Early warmongers treat it as if it were Pangaea; late warmongers can either dominate the home continent or work at out-expanding to the New World. Turtles can turtle anywhere, as long as they don't lose the land rush. Etc.

City States also provide the bonus, you can conquer city states to get a free tech.

I had a very enjoyable game as Assyria on a very hilly map. Siege Towers seemed underwhelming until I started using them. I kept several around even after it was possible to upgrade them. I used my Royal Libraries instead of building Barracks.

Assyria can go early war. But either Assyria can go science and then later go war for additional techs. In human hands should be very powerfull, I think Assyria is much better then Huns.

You pretty much have to demolish a bunch of city-states to even have a chance.

I've just realised a bit of a problem with Assyria. They get a unique library which is nice and all that but in all the games I've played, libraries of all kinds increase science while for the UA to shine, you actually have to kind of be behind?

DudewiththeFood said:

I've just realised a bit of a problem with Assyria. They get a unique library which is nice and all that but in all the games I've played, libraries of all kinds increase science while for the UA to shine, you actually have to kind of be behind?

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On difficulties above Emperor, you'll always be behind in tech at the start, when you want to be attacking with Assyria, and as anyone you always want libraries.

It's also a misconception that you want to be behind with Assyria - in fact you want to be close to tech leader, since as with spies the technology you can steal is determined by your own tech level (you can't steal a tech you can't otherwise research), so if the defender has Civil Service but you don't yet have Mathematics, you're not going to be able to take Civil Service. Beyond that, you don't need to be behind in tech to gain a bonus, just not have techs the other civs do. This will usually be the case if you're going down the military path - you can steal techs like Philosophy or Compass that other civs will get before you even if they have fewer techs overall.

To the question at hand, I've had little success with Assyria on Emperor and Immortal and I'd agree that it might be a little weak:

The UA is certainly never going to compensate for teching, and often I find myself further behind trying Assyria than as a non-militaristic civ, so that I will often be in the situation where I can't capture cities quickly enough to compensate technologically. It may be best playing Assyria with the late game in mind, taking very beaker-intensive techs in late game war, but that loses all synergy with the siege tower.

The siege tower is powerful out of context, but it is not sufficient compensation for having no ranged siege units. You need several, or a couple of supporting melee units, to get the most from it, and you still can't skimp on ranged units. Unlike the Hun battering ram, the siege tower costs you the catapult, a long-lived unit at a critical game stage, and having no ranged siege before Physics is tough. Especially as the siege tower's effectiveness as a direct siege unit (rather than to support other units) tails off before the catapult's. The only effective use of siege towers I've seen has been from a Zulu AI that got them as a UU from a militaristic CS - and without supporting catapults they wouldn't have worked then.

The Royal Library has very little synergy with the civ's approach. It requires a Great Work of Writing, and you don't want to be devoting effort to teching to Drama and Poetry and then building a Writers' Guild early, plus the experience boost is less than you get from a barracks. So either you use it late, or you try to rely on looting a Great Work from a captured city. In either case, it's a somewhat pointless bonus since by that time you've built the units you need (particularly if you're successfully capturing cities).

DudewiththeFood said:

I've just realised a bit of a problem with Assyria. They get a unique library which is nice and all that but in all the games I've played, libraries of all kinds increase science while for the UA to shine, you actually have to kind of be behind?

Click to expand...

Yup, but then you go smashing through other civs cities and get techs for free to put you right back in the game!

Personally I think Assyria is fantastic, and I'm usually one for the financial civs (Venice, Netherlands, Carthage, etc.) and playing a fairly peaceful, diplomatic game. I've read here too many times that Assyria is like Babylon crossed with The Huns, when in reality it's more like Babylon but more interesting and active to play as, and The Huns but more viable for a long-term strategy.

If you haven't used the Siege Tower yet then I understand if you're underwhelmed - Assyria is built around using Siege Towers early to eat up cities and expand your land and resources (and techs!) through early conquest.

But then, after that...?

Well, here's what makes Assyria interesting then. You've got a leg up not just on domination, but also science or even culture if you choose to take it. That kind of versatility is almost unheard of in this game when tied to such a vibrant situation-based strategy (the Assyrian early game.) It's not crazy for Assyria to choose Freedom, for instance, once that time comes around because their ancient history really just sets the table for whatever you choose to do with them later.

Put another way, Assyria is a snowball civ. Go hardcore conquest in the early game, with those Siege Towers amplifying each other and with Composite Bowmen supporting, and then build yourself into an elder statesman and decide which victory suits you.

NoOneImportant said:

AI likely doesn't know how to properly use uniques, as it is in many cases.
In player's hands it's quite a nice civilization, at least in my experience. Actually, my first Domination victory was with Assyria (that was on King, but when I moved to higher difficulties I noticed that the UA and UU are even more useful). My strategy was pretty much beelining Mathematics and Construction (I didn't research Wirting until then, though it could work even better) and then DoWing one or two nearby civs and crushing with Siege Towers and Composite Bowmen. When I got my wonders and technologies from wars I started growing and only continued conquest when artillery was around - but that was a Continents map and those two leaders were my only neighbours.
Basically, Assyria gives a great start, but its uniques don't really matter in late game, unless you just beeline a faraway tech and get the others with the UA (AI tends to balance its technologies and try to complete earlier eras before moving on).

Click to expand...

See this I didn't know, that city states would give you a free tech too. I guess I keep forgetting they are in fact their own civs.

So going tall still makes sense?

I think they mostly shine on higher levels, where the AI is actually ahead in tech. Siege towers are very strong and make your army beastly at taking cities. So you just need good target cities. The higher level you go the better target cities you'll find.

I do agree about the UB, it's pretty weak. I guess it could come in handy for later pushes, building air forces, etc but doesn't factor into the early game much.

Assyria isn't underpowered; early warmongering is underpowered.

copperred said:

I'm trying to give every BNW civ a chance but I just don't get Assyria. I see when he pops as another civ in my games and usually only has one city, maybe up to 4 (guessing tall is the way to go?) and hopelessly backward.

I decided to give it a shot myself and that library isn't really that helpful. The lag between when you start getting great writers and other GPs is pretty long and it doesn't seem to do much for me. The siege looks good but haven't had a chance to use it. The unique ability should lend itself to an aggressive ruler who conquers other civs but in my other games he's done almost nothing. What am I missing? Should you go wide?

Click to expand...

Boy when he starts on land though its over. I started a small continents map as indonesia with normal sea level and rainfall yet for some reason got a half the map super continent with 6 civs on it. Plenty of other good land for me to settle though!. However I didnt settle anything on the continent i started on because shaka/assyria ate it all up! Ashy conquered all but one of Askias cities, one of the aztecs the americans capital and like 3 city states. Lucky me i was his friend

Going Liberty as warmonger is generally nice idea, since policy discount would help in picking something important like Rationalism or Autocracy tenets. Honor is nice, but not worth 6 policies.
You may add 2 more AI for standard just to make land more crowded and shorten distance to future provinces.

With siege tower there is not much philosophy, have like 2 of them and escort them with archers.
UA power is in ability to go bottom line, and still get top. And thats enought.
Royal Liberary is not instead of barracs, but more in place for Armory. Being able to have library amphiteater, and armory in one building (hammer wise, and mantenece) is decent enought.

MarauderCH said:

Yup, but then you go smashing through other civs cities and get techs for free to put you right back in the game!

Click to expand...

Or, you can just focus all your science on military technologies, get ahead, and use that advanced army to attack some peaceful players and get their other techs, possibly giving you a tech lead.

On the matter of Assyria vs the Huns, the Huns can launch an attack significantly earlier than Assyria, and hence have a greater chance of taking out more rival Civs early on but Assyria has much more potential for the rest of the game.

As for the Royal Library, seeing as you only get 10 XP for filling the slot, the only time it'll be enough to give you a promotion is if you have no other XP boosting items in the city. Having far more Great Writing slots avaliable throughout your empire is the bigger bonus, but doesn't fit well with the other uniques unless you're going for an Autocratic cultural victory. On the other hand, 15 XP may be overpowered seeing as Assyria's UA and UU are already strong.

DudewiththeFood said:

I've just realised a bit of a problem with Assyria. They get a unique library which is nice and all that but in all the games I've played, libraries of all kinds increase science while for the UA to shine, you actually have to kind of be behind?

Click to expand...

The library UB doesn't give you more science that a nor mal library, it gives extra XP for units if it has a great work. It's a military bonus that requires some prior investment in culture.
Anyway, you don't need to be behind in tech to make use Assyria's UA, you just need to attack people who took another research path.

evilcat said:

Royal Liberary is not instead of barracs, but more in place for Armory. Being able to have library amphiteater, and armory in one building (hammer wise, and mantenece) is decent enought.

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It's not in place of either - it's a supplement that, when you finally hit Military Academy, will turn your two-and-a-bit promotions into a round three. And that's really it. Given how poorly it synergises with the rest of the civ in its requirement for a Great Work, its unique effect is nearly worthless - you'll take it because you always need libraries, but as a UB it's very weak.

As for the Royal Library, seeing as you only get 10 XP for filling the slot, the only time it'll be enough to give you a promotion is if you have no other XP boosting items in the city. Having far more Great Writing slots avaliable throughout your empire is the bigger bonus, but doesn't fit well with the other uniques unless you're going for an Autocratic cultural victory.

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Even that's not a great bonus, since unless you're going tall and have missed both the GL and Globe, you're going to have filled your available writing slots anyway unless you loot anything. Extra slots for writing and music are mostly not that useful if they don't give theming bonuses - art slots are much more valuable since those buildings are rather late and there's a lot more variety in how many artefacts you can collect during a game than any other GWs. Even the Great Library isn't valuable for giving you extra GW slots - it's valuable for giving you a theming bonus.