Wodan
Deity
A desert capitol isn't bad when you do the Desert Folklore / Petra strat.
Assyria underpowered?
- Thread starter copperred
- Start date
A desert capitol isn't bad when you do the Desert Folklore / Petra strat.
FECAL_URGENCY
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2013
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- 8
When I play as Assyria, I beeline science as usual. What several people here are forgetting is that if you deliberately go deep in the tech tree, you can be way ahead in total science and yet still be missing many more primitive technologies. I just go straight through the top of the tree, and use conquests to fill out the bottom (military) techs. If you're playing at any respectable difficulty, there's no way you're going to totally eclipse all your neighbours until you're well into the game, and if you reach that point, you're already winning anyway.
Spoiler :
So, my first and current Assyria game. I thought it was pretty funny Shaka stole CALENDAR. The three crosses is India being dead and so our trade deal got canceled. I got pretty lucky with Assur's placement - the dye and cotton were totally not expected.
Not doing that well science wise since I chose to tech the bottom half and steal/take the top half. I think the above poster's approach will probably work better. Sejeong is running away with the science but his military is crap, so I will probably keep stealing techs from him until I can't steal anymore, then I'll kill him.
El Caballerion
King
Strategist83
King
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
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- 625
Difficulty is irrelevant, the game isn't and shouldn't be balanced around the AI's cheat bonuses on high difficulties. Other civs aren't balanced around this, either. The bonus I suggest for Assyria will be mostly theoretical since you're unlikely to be the tech leader when playing as a warmonger, but it still needs to be there so that having a good science rate doesn't penalize Assyria like it currently does, which makes no sense for a civ with a leader interested in scholary pursuits. It doesn't have to be a large bonus, it just has to be there.
FECAL_URGENCY
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2013
- Messages
- 8
Eh, I disagree with all of your arguments for why the UA is "poor design".
First off, half of your argument is based on the UA not being faithful to history, and I don't think I need to explain how game balance and historical accuracy are entirely unrelated.
The rest is based on an unjustified assumption that a catch-up ability is poor design. Why? It's only bad if the player can always count on being the furthest ahead, but if that's the case then the difficulty just needs to be increased. It has nothing to do with balancing the UA specifically for high difficulties.
It makes things much more interesting when there are UAs with strong effects but balancing drawbacks, and I think this one is a good example. India's would be another one, love it or hate it.
right ofc. but the starts i tried w/Assyria only had Desert tiles as a background (not good desert tiles e.g. Oases, Flood Plains, mining lux) kind of "backyard" in the terrain, while it was a rivered Plains that was the main feature.
Olleus
Deity
Half way through my game and a few comments:
1) Siege towers are insane. They just gift you a continent for free. The only unit I've ever played with that was this powerful is the praetorians from Civ4. I would say this, build them in a city WITHOUT barracks, because there is only 1 useful promotion they can get (cover 2) that carries with upgrades to trebs, so you want to keep them under 30exp. This is much easier to do without barracks.
I think to balance them out a little, they should not deal damage when defending. 12 strength is huge for that era, and means that they can defend themselves very well against warriors and even spearman. Which goes against the idea of a unit which is vulnerable in the field but deadly in sieges.
2) The UA is good and interesting. When you're behind it helps you catch up, therefore limiting the pitfalls of the warmonger who risks falling massively behind while conquering. I was tech leader by 0AD even though I didn't start building libraries until turn 130 (equivalent to 85 on normal) and finished the science national wonder by 180. From then on, it encouraged me to beeline so that by conquering City States (which the UA also encourages) I got new techs. Got the 3 post metal casting techs this way.
3) The Royal library is meh. I guess it got me pumping out writers more than artists, but other than that, not much. 10exp isn't bad, but its never actually going to make a difference. Worse, though, is that it is incredibly passive. I think it should be changed to make it more interesting for the player AND to make Assyria a science and war civ (which its UA is), rather than a straight up warmonger. A few options:
Royal library gives +1 science per specialist in the city if it has a foreign great work. Basically, gives you science for conquering other players great works (or trading them, but conquering gives you more).
Royal Library replaces National College (ie, A UNW rather than UB). Has 3 slots for great works of writing. Gets +3 science and +3 great scientist points per foreign great work. Effectively one free great scientist per great work. Might sound overly powerful but its a unique building that you can only have one of, so has to be quite strong. Also, it provides a dilema for the player to choose between expanding lots and expanding less and getting the Royal Library in play.
1) Siege towers are insane. They just gift you a continent for free. The only unit I've ever played with that was this powerful is the praetorians from Civ4. I would say this, build them in a city WITHOUT barracks, because there is only 1 useful promotion they can get (cover 2) that carries with upgrades to trebs, so you want to keep them under 30exp. This is much easier to do without barracks.
I think to balance them out a little, they should not deal damage when defending. 12 strength is huge for that era, and means that they can defend themselves very well against warriors and even spearman. Which goes against the idea of a unit which is vulnerable in the field but deadly in sieges.
2) The UA is good and interesting. When you're behind it helps you catch up, therefore limiting the pitfalls of the warmonger who risks falling massively behind while conquering. I was tech leader by 0AD even though I didn't start building libraries until turn 130 (equivalent to 85 on normal) and finished the science national wonder by 180. From then on, it encouraged me to beeline so that by conquering City States (which the UA also encourages) I got new techs. Got the 3 post metal casting techs this way.
3) The Royal library is meh. I guess it got me pumping out writers more than artists, but other than that, not much. 10exp isn't bad, but its never actually going to make a difference. Worse, though, is that it is incredibly passive. I think it should be changed to make it more interesting for the player AND to make Assyria a science and war civ (which its UA is), rather than a straight up warmonger. A few options:
Royal library gives +1 science per specialist in the city if it has a foreign great work. Basically, gives you science for conquering other players great works (or trading them, but conquering gives you more).
Royal Library replaces National College (ie, A UNW rather than UB). Has 3 slots for great works of writing. Gets +3 science and +3 great scientist points per foreign great work. Effectively one free great scientist per great work. Might sound overly powerful but its a unique building that you can only have one of, so has to be quite strong. Also, it provides a dilema for the player to choose between expanding lots and expanding less and getting the Royal Library in play.
Wodan
Deity
It sounds like you're operating under the belief that Shock and Drill aren't useful and don't carry when upgraded to trebs/cannon/artillery. My experience is that they are and do. Not only do they help you in defensive fights, but they also add to your ranged combat strength.
Olleus
Deity
Really? Are you sure they add to range combat?
Either way, they can't be used to unlock range or logistics, so I'd rather keep my siege towers a little under promoted to get kick ass artillery later.
The main weakness with Assyria is that their UU and UA help almost exclusively if you're going to war. If you're in a situation where you want to be peaceful, you really gain nothing from choosing Assyria.
With that said, if you are planning on at least waging some war (which I do 90% of my games at Immortal), they're quite nice.
With that said, if you are planning on at least waging some war (which I do 90% of my games at Immortal), they're quite nice.
Seabastian Civ
King
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
- Messages
- 608
Those extra writing slots seem useless. I never use artists or writers on tourism unless I'm going for a tourism win. I'd rather get a free-ish policy or a golden age than 2 tourism. Musicians might as well go into tourism since you can't use them for anything anyway. Regardless...
I struggle using siege towers and keeping my budget above water. In the future I will probably adopt a more balanced approach with Assyria- take some CBs and a ST or two out right before XBs rather than rushing to war like I used to.
I struggle using siege towers and keeping my budget above water. In the future I will probably adopt a more balanced approach with Assyria- take some CBs and a ST or two out right before XBs rather than rushing to war like I used to.
Wodan
Deity
Yep. Do a quick test for yourself; load an old save or something.
That's a good point.
I find that the ability to shuffle Works to my outer cities helps pop borders faster.
Arkangelus
Prince
They definitely do upgrade; not only do the terrain bonuses work for both defence and offence, but so does Siege against Cities (and stacks if you take Volley later), and if you've gone Honor you can even upgrade the adjacent unit bonus onto your cannons. It can be ridiculously beneficial switching from melee to ranged, just not the other way around.
They seem extremely strong in the players hands, but I've always found the AI really struggles. They seem to stay small a bit too long before trying to war, and are very very easily hurt by terrain.
They seem extremely strong in the players hands, but I've always found the AI really struggles. They seem to stay small a bit too long before trying to war, and are very very easily hurt by terrain.
NukeAJS
King
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 850
What's not to get? You bee-line mathematics, make 4 siege towers, and then attack the most technologically advanced civ. The UA makes it so that you aren't penalized for bee-line -- you just pick up all those little techs as you keep stomping cities.
Seabastian Civ
King
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Uh, no. Maybe on Prince. On Emperor + you need CBs to escort, maybe a pike or two. Suddenly your budget is in the red since you're supporting 8 units that are slowly traipsing through the wilderness at one tile per turn. And the first city you take better have some unique luxuries or else you're unhappy as hell, and your military has a -% modifier.
Read the previous posts and they all agree: Assyria isn't immune to the woes of early war and acting like they aren't doesn't help anyone.
Wodan
Deity
You've got a point but you're overstating the situation a bit. Assyria should only keep some cities just like any civ conquering in the early game. Others should be razed, and given that in the early game those cities will be smallish, they'll only take a couple of turns to burn down. Meanwhile your troops can be on their way to the next city. (At 1-2 tiles per turn, not strictly 1.)
There's also nothing stopping you from founding a religion so your midgame has plenty of happiness cap.
Seabastian Civ
King
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- 608
Very good points. But we both agree that simply spamming siege towers doesn't work.
I'm having good success with my current game as Assyria on Emperor, with the caveat that I went tradition and managed to chop the great library thanks to starting in a massive forest.
I went great library -> national college right off the bat, founded 2 more cities while researching Drama and then used the resulting writers to quickly finish tradition and start training cover II siege towers. 3 Towers with composite bow support can take out your nearest neighbor, after which I was leading in tech.
Of course, this all assumes you somehow get the great library and don't have aggressive neighbors. A clear formula for winning as basically anyone.
I went great library -> national college right off the bat, founded 2 more cities while researching Drama and then used the resulting writers to quickly finish tradition and start training cover II siege towers. 3 Towers with composite bow support can take out your nearest neighbor, after which I was leading in tech.
Of course, this all assumes you somehow get the great library and don't have aggressive neighbors. A clear formula for winning as basically anyone.
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