[Discussion] Great Admiral
- Thread starter Akinaba
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Personally, I almost never use the admiral's instant healing ability. It is only a matter of taste, but I don't like to lose the admiral-bonus without a lasting effect. Therefore, I would really prefer a tile improvement as second ability.
Regarding the "surreal" aspect of water tile improvements:
I think, it is just a matter of imagination. The civ-map doesn't necessarily show every small detail. Why not assuming, that a coastal fortification is built on a small island (to small to sustain a city, but more than large enough to sustain a military outpost) or on a small peninsula reaching into the coastal water tile?
Therefore, I want to promote my "Costal Fortification"-idea:
- buildable at coastal tiles (adjacent to land only) anywhere on the map, but not inside other culture influence zones
- converts a 2 hex range of water tiles into your culture. (Though no culture flipping of already acclaimed enemy borders.)
- casts a ZoC of 2 hex against enemy ships. (= slows ships down like the Great Wall does on land.)
- can attack ships within 2 hex range.
(- ships may heal additional 10 HP/turn if stationed inside. This is not really necessary, as the cultural influence zone itself already allows ships to heal.)
The idea behind this:
a) helps to defend coastal cities against raids
b) helps to defend naval trade routes against raids
c) may control straits (I love especially this aspect)
d) may be used as sea outpost far away from the own empire.
--
furthermore:
e) is very close to the Great General's ability but not exactly the same.
f) is longer lasting and not so out-of-time in early eras than mine fields.
The "flagship"- and "city building"-proposals are reasonable but quite "unseeable" and very Civ4-ish. I would prefer the tile improvement all the time.
Regarding the "surreal" aspect of water tile improvements:
I think, it is just a matter of imagination. The civ-map doesn't necessarily show every small detail. Why not assuming, that a coastal fortification is built on a small island (to small to sustain a city, but more than large enough to sustain a military outpost) or on a small peninsula reaching into the coastal water tile?
Therefore, I want to promote my "Costal Fortification"-idea:
- buildable at coastal tiles (adjacent to land only) anywhere on the map, but not inside other culture influence zones
- converts a 2 hex range of water tiles into your culture. (Though no culture flipping of already acclaimed enemy borders.)
- casts a ZoC of 2 hex against enemy ships. (= slows ships down like the Great Wall does on land.)
- can attack ships within 2 hex range.
(- ships may heal additional 10 HP/turn if stationed inside. This is not really necessary, as the cultural influence zone itself already allows ships to heal.)
The idea behind this:
a) helps to defend coastal cities against raids
b) helps to defend naval trade routes against raids
c) may control straits (I love especially this aspect)
d) may be used as sea outpost far away from the own empire.
--
furthermore:
e) is very close to the Great General's ability but not exactly the same.
f) is longer lasting and not so out-of-time in early eras than mine fields.
The "flagship"- and "city building"-proposals are reasonable but quite "unseeable" and very Civ4-ish. I would prefer the tile improvement all the time.
The only ability the Great Admiral needs is the ability to teleport somehow from one city I own to another: currently, I still have games where the Great Admiral spawns into a coastal city that is locked up tight with top- or bottom-of-map ice. This is extremely frustrating in those instances where other cities are not locked-in in this manner.
My suggestion is simple: when the Great Admiral spawns, let me choose which coastal city to spawn him in. Barring that, add an ability to spend a whole turn's movement points to let me move the Great Admiral to any coastal city I own. Call it 'portaging' or something. While I'd prefer just to pick where the Great Admiral spawns right off the bat, this would suffice as well.
BNW may rectify the situation partially, as I would guess the Great Admiral could be airlifted (maybe), but even that would probably come a little too late in the game (far too late, actually) to solve the problem.
My suggestion is simple: when the Great Admiral spawns, let me choose which coastal city to spawn him in. Barring that, add an ability to spend a whole turn's movement points to let me move the Great Admiral to any coastal city I own. Call it 'portaging' or something. While I'd prefer just to pick where the Great Admiral spawns right off the bat, this would suffice as well.
BNW may rectify the situation partially, as I would guess the Great Admiral could be airlifted (maybe), but even that would probably come a little too late in the game (far too late, actually) to solve the problem.
stealth_nsk
Deity
I don't see any reason for Great Admirals to make Great Flagship. They ARE great flagships already.
The idea to make them do something with trade routes is far more fun. Like making a permanent trade route or something.
The idea to make them do something with trade routes is far more fun. Like making a permanent trade route or something.
g3istbot
Space Squid from SPACE
I think a UA which gave a boost to building ships in connected tiles would be useful for a great admiral, and additionally being able to give bonus damage to naval units within a radius of the great admiral as well.
ships in general are kind of lack luster; unless your playing on a map which has a great deal of coastal cities, more than likely (at least from what I've found) they aren't going to be used.
I think an introduction of piracy, and maybe a more affective blockade system would give naval units over all a greater usage.
ships in general are kind of lack luster; unless your playing on a map which has a great deal of coastal cities, more than likely (at least from what I've found) they aren't going to be used.
I think an introduction of piracy, and maybe a more affective blockade system would give naval units over all a greater usage.
It may not be a game-changer, but it's hard to argue that a unit is bad when it doesn't really cost you anything, and provides combat strength and the option of repair for your navy. It's awarded entirely separately from other GPs, so it doesn't really need to be competitive with them (except perhaps in the Mayan UA, but those are freebies anyway).
Add to that a slight bonus use early on where you can use it to enter ocean tiles like an early caravel, and it really isn't all that bad.
I'm not convinced by any suggestions for tile improvements I've seen for it, and a trade-related use wouldn't fit with it being awarded for naval combat. Best update the Great Merchant instead (which is also a little lacklustre).
Add to that a slight bonus use early on where you can use it to enter ocean tiles like an early caravel, and it really isn't all that bad.
I'm not convinced by any suggestions for tile improvements I've seen for it, and a trade-related use wouldn't fit with it being awarded for naval combat. Best update the Great Merchant instead (which is also a little lacklustre).
Luckystrike77
Prince
I wish they could Power Down the Great General rather then powering up the Admiral. The culture bomb of the general has ruined the charm of multiplayer warfare.
Great generals/admirals comes from another pool then other great people, and the also not effecting how fast the next great person in the other pool will be born. There is no gameplay reasons for the military GP's to be Power balanced with the civilian GP's.
Great generals/admirals comes from another pool then other great people, and the also not effecting how fast the next great person in the other pool will be born. There is no gameplay reasons for the military GP's to be Power balanced with the civilian GP's.
bcaiko
Emperor
One thing that would be nice for the Great Admiral is to see their movement increased with the eras. When one pops up in the Industrial Era on the other side of the world from my ships, its 4 movement means it will never get anywhere in time to be of use to me.
It costs unit maintenence. At least when a Great General appears and I can send them to expand my borders with a citadel and recoup the cost of the unit maintence I've been paying.
Eith Great Admirals sit there waiting to be useful or you delete them.
It costs unit maintenence. At least when a Great General appears and I can send them to expand my borders with a citadel and recoup the cost of the unit maintence I've been paying.
Eith Great Admirals sit there waiting to be useful or you delete them.
maybe another way to look at it is that the admiral is currently only useful at times of war. ofc that is somehow selfevident with his title, but if you look at his land equivalent you can still use him at times of piece (with diplomatic repercussions) to extent your borders. you cannot use the great admiral for something useful apart from healing your fleet in times of piece which shouldnt be a problem in the first place.
kingchris20
Wisdom Seeker
Seeing as how a work boat can create an offshore oil rig, the idea of an ocean tile improvement is not that far-fetched. A sea fort that creates your borders that expand 1 tile out from it for naval healing is not such a bad idea
As others said, I like the idea of a tile improvement option like the great general's fort.
Only instead of it being strictly a defensive structure, it would be a sort of resupply station. The way I envision it is that it's deployed on a coastal tile and gives you a small harbor/fort with a few hexes of territory. (like the great general's fort does)
Its function would be to provide healing and expand your control of the Sea. You place it on an island just a few hexes away from the battle. When units get injured, you send them to the resupply station to repair and get back into the fight. Or if you have trade routes going through the area, it could provide added sight and protection from barbarians and other enemies.
Basically it would be like setting up a city on one of those 1-hex islands without having to deal with all the crap that comes with creating an actual city. (happiness hit, culture policy length hit, having to build stuff, etc)
Only instead of it being strictly a defensive structure, it would be a sort of resupply station. The way I envision it is that it's deployed on a coastal tile and gives you a small harbor/fort with a few hexes of territory. (like the great general's fort does)
Its function would be to provide healing and expand your control of the Sea. You place it on an island just a few hexes away from the battle. When units get injured, you send them to the resupply station to repair and get back into the fight. Or if you have trade routes going through the area, it could provide added sight and protection from barbarians and other enemies.
Basically it would be like setting up a city on one of those 1-hex islands without having to deal with all the crap that comes with creating an actual city. (happiness hit, culture policy length hit, having to build stuff, etc)
I agree with this to a large extent. The point of the GA is to float the GG's bonus out onto the ocean. The insta-heal is almost a needless secondary ability.
The reaosn for the secondary ability is for when you have more than you actually need. Like I said, just let him build shipyards.
Exactly this.
How I think it may look like:
When GA comes to a shore and you press "Build Coastal Citadel" ability button the game draws a one hex radius border (just like it draws range unit radius) around the unit. You can place an improvement only on land inside that radius. This action consumes GA and gives you GG-like "Coastal Citadel" or "Coastal Fort" improvement with one hex tiles of your territory around it. Coastal Citadel provides defensive bonus from sea units and from land units as well. Generally it works like a regular Citadel but with an ability for your Naval units to go inside it.
However it's only fantasies and I doubt something like this would suddenly appear in game.
P.S. If you think such an ability is overpowered you can play with its maintenance. Say, Coastal Fort cost no maintenance if it have connection with your borders. If there is no border connection to your civilization pay 1 gold per turn for it's maintenance for each tile left to your border.
P.P.S. Speaking further GG's Citadels could be also changed like this, instead of now when you are able only to deploy them in one hex radius from your border.
SemperFi2382
Mitten Marauder
I'd rather have additional supply, for repairing outside of your borders. Or, improve Atolls (and maybe islands) into a Resupply Station, which isn't far fetched or inaccurate either.
This will be solved later in the game with the airport.
kingchris20
Wisdom Seeker
Unless airlifts have changed drastically, land units are the only ones able to use it
It would be nice if the Great Admiral could passively heal nearby ships, like the Khan... something modest like +10 or +20 per turn. That would be a real play benefit, and could represent an actual quality of an Admiral (additional supply), and not be totally out of character like building forts or shipyards.
kingchris20
Wisdom Seeker
Agreed, that would actually be the best, most practical buff for the GA
Well, love the idea. However, for some reason devs didn't implemented it, though, they obviously could.
Speaking about being totally out of character: the fact that Great General can build a Citadel, doesn't disturb you for some reason.
I don't see anything out of character about a General being associated with the construction of a base or fort. Admirals may oversee the building of ships, but generally not forts (even coastal), which are usually under the auspices of the Army, not the Navy.
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