Why can't we accuse AI of having troops on our border?

S

S.K. Ren

Prince
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
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369
Location
Gig Harbor, WA
This bugs the hell out of me. If I move 2 units next to a border I get nagged about suspicious troop movement. If I say no, I get dinged when and if I DOW. If I say yes I get the basic Warmonger penalty and am out of position. Yet I have to sit and watch the AI get perfectly situated without being able to do anything short of starting the war myself and get dinged for it. Why?

We should be able to ask AI the same question about troop movements and have them face the same penalties of being out of position or breaking a promise.
 
Why indeed? Why can't we tell them to stop converting our holy cities? Why can't we successfully demand anything from them or ask them for help when we have a DOF? Why can't we destroy a civ without penalties, yet the AI can?

It's details like these that stop the diplo in V from being the best one we've seen in a Civ game. Seemingly small details, but they pile on.
 
While this does bother me, I personally find it trivial compared to not being able to tell other civs to keep their gorram Great Prophets and their heathenism off my precious soil. I can't count the number of times I've sat quietly gnashing my teeth together in rage as I watched someone's GP saunters through my borders and directly towards the holy city of Awesomeism.

~R~
 
Devs need to add these options in. I will gladly take more negative diplo hits for them to stop.
 
The "are you declaring war" thing always struck me as an odd omission. They can add a diplo penalty for you asking in order to prevent you from spamming it, but I don't understand why the AI can't play by the same rules for this one. If they want to backstab, they should be seen as a backstabber. If they don't, they can either withdraw their troops or declare war early.

They can even calculate a "surprise factor" into their calculation for probability of success that goes away if you ask if they are attacking. I believe they already have a deception factor that can determine if they'll lie to your face while smiling.
 
Andulias said:
Why indeed? Why can't we tell them to stop converting our holy cities? Why can't we successfully demand anything from them or ask them for help when we have a DOF? Why can't we destroy a civ without penalties, yet the AI can?

It's details like these that stop the diplo in V from being the best one we've seen in a Civ game. Seemingly small details, but they pile on.
Click to expand...

Are you sure there are no diplo hits for AI civs from destroying other civilizations?

Particularly in G&K where breaking promises leads to game-relevant modifiers, I think the diplo system should be symmetrical - we should get to ask anything the AI can (e.g. stop moving troops near our territory), and we should have an "ask for help" option when asking for a one-sided deal rather than just proposing a deal that might make AI friends more willing to accept the deal.

As for why we can't ask for help and the AI can, or why we get modifiers it doesn't, I think this is simply a consequence of the fact that the AI is playing against a human, and humans don't operate a modifier system. If an AI destroys another civ, or if we ask an AI for something and it refuses, it's up to us to react accordingly rather than to decide we hate the other civ because we've got a "You refused a request while in a DoF" modifier against them.
 
Yep, those are the only things that I find lacking in the diplomacy now. AI has free rein in what they do, while you don't. Why can't the AI get the warmonger/genocider tag while I will have to deal with it for the rest of the game?

This will give tons of immersion while not being too "game-y".

EDIT:
Basically, I want to see the option to complain about what the AI is doing. If they complain about how I just converted their city, I would like to have that capability as well when they do it to me.
 
How do you know the AI doesn't have the genocider tag? When have you ever seen the AI wipe out a civ or city state and not have bad relations with everyone in the game? Use infoaddict, and when you want to see how a particular civ is standing in relation to everyone, check the relations section. It really comes in handy,and I can assure you, the same thing does apply to them.

But yes, I agree we should be able to ask them to move their troops.

Also, I think if a civ asks for help and we provide it, and denounce us or dow us later, while we did nothing to them, they should take a SERIOUS diplo hit. Also, we should get a positive diplo modifier with every civ for helping other civs.
 
Raiki said:
While this does bother me, I personally find it trivial compared to not being able to tell other civs to keep their gorram Great Prophets and their heathenism off my precious soil. I can't count the number of times I've sat quietly gnashing my teeth together in rage as I watched someone's GP saunters through my borders and directly towards the holy city of Awesomeism.

~R~
Click to expand...

Park a inquistor in your holy cities and other cities you don't want indoctrinated. It works, it really works XD

Saw a great prophet march to my holy city, I insta buy a inquistor, great prophet leaves in a huff.
 
Raiki said:
While this does bother me, I personally find it trivial compared to not being able to tell other civs to keep their gorram Great Prophets and their heathenism off my precious soil. I can't count the number of times I've sat quietly gnashing my teeth together in rage as I watched someone's GP saunters through my borders and directly towards the holy city of Awesomeism.

~R~
Click to expand...

I've declared war and killed the prophet numerous times. I've never really suffered horrible diplomatic repercussions for it and I end the war with no real aggression.

The only thing that sucks is when one you declared friendship does this to you and declaring war on them. It sucks even more when you click on a joint strike against someone and you forgot you have a declaration of friendship with them. That is a foreign relations nightmare that is extremely difficult to get out of and very annoying especially when the guy who asked you to join the assault denounces you for this. Argh!
 
S.K. Ren said:
This bugs the hell out of me. If I move 2 units next to a border I get nagged about suspicious troop movement. If I say no, I get dinged when and if I DOW. If I say yes I get the basic Warmonger penalty and am out of position. Yet I have to sit and watch the AI get perfectly situated without being able to do anything short of starting the war myself and get dinged for it. Why?

We should be able to ask AI the same question about troop movements and have them face the same penalties of being out of position or breaking a promise.
Click to expand...

Very often when AI declares War on me they say something like :

Code: 
<Row Tag="TXT_KEY_GENERIC_DOW_WEAK_BETRAYAL_1">
  <Text>The odds are clearly not with me, but I see no alternative to revealing my deceptive practices. I can now only pray that my armies succeed.</Text>
</Row>

which sounds like their army build up close to my borders was discovered and they were forced to show colors and DoW. (In most cases they had no chance.)
 
Raiki said:
While this does bother me, I personally find it trivial compared to not being able to tell other civs to keep their gorram Great Prophets and their heathenism off my precious soil. I can't count the number of times I've sat quietly gnashing my teeth together in rage as I watched someone's GP saunters through my borders and directly towards the holy city of Awesomeism.

~R~
Click to expand...

There should be an option for military units or inquisitors (or a diplo option) to "kick" unwanted Great Prophets from your lands without declaring war.
 
I agree. I don't want to declare war just to capture some Great Prophet, who I can't use anyway because he isn't of my religion.

And I was under the impression that the DOW message you listed (2 posts above mine) was more because they felt your lands were the only way to expand - despite being inferior. I didn't think it had anything to do with you seeing their military. But that experience comes from me vs. a Japanese AI, who is one of the aggressive warring ones. (On the other hand, a great ally to have because they care a lot less about warmongering)
 
We can't because the AI cheats and Civ5 is an unfair game.
 
historix69 said:
There should be an option for military units or inquisitors (or a diplo option) to "kick" unwanted Great Prophets from your lands without declaring war.
Click to expand...

Well, if that great prophet haven't done any converts yet, you can use him to build a holy site XD
 
Totally agree to all of u saying that we should be able to ask other civs to move their troops out of our borders and then face the same consequences as we do.

I also agree that we should be able to ask a civ to stop spamming our cities with prophets and missionaries.

Patch the diplomacy options Firaxis and let us to get a little deeper into diplomacy !!!
 
Andulias said:
Why indeed? Why can't we tell them to stop converting our holy cities? Why can't we successfully demand anything from them or ask them for help when we have a DOF? Why can't we destroy a civ without penalties, yet the AI can?

It's details like these that stop the diplo in V from being the best one we've seen in a Civ game. Seemingly small details, but they pile on.
Click to expand...

Dear Mods, quite honestly, can we move this one to bug reports?
 
Andulias said:
Why indeed? Why can't we tell them to stop converting our holy cities?
Click to expand...

Why bother, even when you have a larger military they never listen when you ask them to not settle near you or spy on you. All those options seem to be is a free diplo hit when you want them to DOW on you.
 
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