Air Combat in BtS explained

r_rolo1 said:
I think that this is not intended, due to the syntax.... if it was intended we would get a "*2" in the first line instead of a crazy check if there is a promo bonus or not for the second time.....
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DanF5771 said:
The effects of bonus promotions vs Gunpowder units and Tanks (Pinch & Ambush) are not doubled. But any Air-strike targets will also suffer from the doubling, and that's why I think it should be fixed. (+ I share rolo's opinion about the syntax.)
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It's a pity that it isn't intended. And the issue with pinch and ambush promotions not doubling unlike the combat promotions is bad for balance (that's why I asked). Still, I wish it would be possible to promote your airplanes in an effective way. It's pretty hard to fight a somewhat efficient air superiority battle even when your guys are far more experienced. Making experience unimportant in air superiority battles isn't very good for gameplay and it's also not based on realism.

Since, I would rarely use pinch and ambush on fighters anyway and since I like the effect of the doubling of combat promotion effects on air superiority combat, I wish this bug hadn't been found. Bleh, now I guess you'll want Solver to fix it. :sad:

But yeah, it's a bug. But a nice bug. ;)
 
How about the following tweaks to air combat and the airplane promotions to make their XPs actually have an (un-borked) effect:
A) take the +25% EvasionChange away from ACE and give it a +50% UnitCombatMods vs other airplanes instead (air superiority)
B) give RANGE1 an extra +10% EvasionChange
C) give RANGE2 an extra +20% EvasionChange
D) decrease MAX_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE in GlobalDefines.xml from 50 to 34 (so a healthy interceptor needs to win 3 rounds instead of just 2 to kill --> decrease the lucky-punch-factor)
These changes suggest different promotion paths for Bombers (--> Range) and Fighters (--> Ace) and can all be done just by modding the XMLs.
 
DanF5771 said:
How about the following tweaks to air combat and the airplane promotions to make their XPs actually have an (un-borked) effect:
A) take the +25% EvasionChange away from ACE and give it a +50% UnitCombatMods vs other airplanes instead (air superiority)
B) give RANGE1 an extra +10% EvasionChange
C) give RANGE2 an extra +20% EvasionChange
D) decrease MAX_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE in GlobalDefines.xml from 50 to 34 (so a healthy interceptor needs to win 3 rounds instead of just 2 to kill --> decrease the lucky-punch-factor)
These changes suggest different promotion paths for Bombers (--> Range) and Fighters (--> Ace) and can all be done just by modding the XMLs.
Click to expand...

Seems sensible enough. I have only one gripe about this - it also decreases the amount of damaged dished out by sub-100% intercept units. MAX_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE doubles as the Interception % multiplier to calculate damage, and lowering this will also lower, for example, SAM inf damage (from 20 to 13 hp/won round).

Bombers and units with up to 20% intercept prob aren't affected because of the MIN_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE, though. I suppose it nerfs mainly SAM Inf, Mobile SAM and Destroyers?
 
DanF5771 said:
How about the following tweaks to air combat and the airplane promotions to make their XPs actually have an (un-borked) effect:
A) take the +25% EvasionChange away from ACE and give it a +50% UnitCombatMods vs other airplanes instead (air superiority)
B) give RANGE1 an extra +10% EvasionChange
C) give RANGE2 an extra +20% EvasionChange
D) decrease MAX_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE in GlobalDefines.xml from 50 to 34 (so a healthy interceptor needs to win 3 rounds instead of just 2 to kill --> decrease the lucky-punch-factor)
These changes suggest different promotion paths for Bombers (--> Range) and Fighters (--> Ace) and can all be done just by modding the XMLs.
Click to expand...

Stormreaver said:
Seems sensible enough. I have only one gripe about this - it also decreases the amount of damaged dished out by sub-100% intercept units. MAX_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE doubles as the Interception % multiplier to calculate damage, and lowering this will also lower, for example, SAM inf damage (from 20 to 13 hp/won round).

Bombers and units with up to 20% intercept prob aren't affected because of the MIN_INTERCEPTION_DAMAGE, though. I suppose it nerfs mainly SAM Inf, Mobile SAM and Destroyers?
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It would work decently for a mod, I think.

You could also lower the min_interception damage and increase the number of air combat rounds to 7 or something like that to make everything scale.

Note that the OP didn't want a lengthy discussion about how to change air combat in his thread. We probably should respect that.
 
Stormreaver said:
Caught me. Touché. :crazyeye:
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Sorry, I was a bit sleepy when I wrote that and didn't even realise that I was confronting the OP (you) with his original comment. :crazyeye:
 
Thanks for the article, not passing often the Medieval era I didn't know anything about this.

Yesterday I had my first experience with air combat. The AI airships were taking 15% off my units every turn.

I don't know if this is obvious to everyone, but maybe it should be explicitly stated in the article:
- In an airstrike mission the attacking unit is never wounded.
- In an airstrike mission by a unit without collateral capability, only 1 ground unit is wounded.

By the way, what can I do to protect my Muskets/Cavalry from airships? SAM is miles away in the techtree. Should I build airships, base them near the front and always set them on intercept mission? Is there any other option? The solution I used yesterday was taking the enemy cities with the wounded units... not too efficient.
 
jesusin said:
Thanks for the article, not passing often the Medieval era I didn't know anything about this.

Yesterday I had my first experience with air combat. The AI airships were taking 15% off my units every turn.

I don't know if this is obvious to everyone, but maybe it should be explicitly stated in the article:
- In an airstrike mission the attacking unit is never wounded.
- In an airstrike mission by a unit without collateral capability, only 1 ground unit is wounded.

By the way, what can I do to protect my Muskets/Cavalry from airships? SAM is miles away in the techtree. Should I build airships, base them near the front and always set them on intercept mission? Is there any other option? The solution I used yesterday was taking the enemy cities with the wounded units... not too efficient.
Click to expand...

I'll include the notes on airstrikes when I update the article, but my vacation seems to get in the way (for some reason vacation nowadays makes me spend LESS time on Civ-related stuff instead of MORE. Crazy, I know...)

3.17 added a (low chance) intercept ability to Machine Guns which are closer in the tech tree, apart from that there's really no counter to early airhsips I know of. Since airships strike the strongest (base+combat promos) defenders you just have to include more strong units in a stack. Simple, eh?
 
You could use a super medic with the stack.

WoodsmanIII will heal units 20% in enemy territory, while WoodsmanIII +MedicIII heals a whopping 45%!

With 3.17 Machineguns have gained a small intercept bonus, so you could try those.
Anti tanks also have a base 20% intercept and can gain the interception promotion
Other than that, destroyers can also intercept air (although I do not know if they can cover land tiles)
 
jesusin said:
Should I build airships, base them near the front and always set them on intercept mission? Is there any other option?
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As all of you probably know, airship can't intercept.
Being the first to airships is a big advantage for a long time!
 
In your article you said: "You always issue missions to your air units one by one, there is no such thing as a fleet attack or fighters escorting bombers."

By using the ALT and CTRL keys when selecting air units it is possible to use multiple air units at a time. ALT selects all units and CTRL selects all units of the same type. Just be careful not to all your planes on a recon mission because the computer will send all your units to recon one tile.

P.S. First post on this site so please excuse the unconventional quoting style.
 
NUCFLASH said:
In your article you said: "You always issue missions to your air units one by one, there is no such thing as a fleet attack or fighters escorting bombers."

By using the ALT and CTRL keys when selecting air units it is possible to use multiple air units at a time. ALT selects all units and CTRL selects all units of the same type. Just be careful not to all your planes on a recon mission because the computer will send all your units to recon one tile.

P.S. First post on this site so please excuse the unconventional quoting style.
Click to expand...

You're right. And wrong.

Selecting several planes and sending them on a mission is simply equivalent to performing the same mission with each plane. In the article I meant that there is, as far as game mechanics goes, no way to make air units cooperate in a single mission.
 
Mission: Recon

If the target square is a mountaintop then line-of-sight (LOS) cannot be blocked by any other terrain. If the target square is a grassland then hills and mountains block LOS. Targeting a hill gets an intermediate result.
 
So, I conclude that an enemy aircraft on intercept duty cannot be damaged or removed.
Moreover, enemy aircraft 'on the ground' cannot be damaged or destroyed.

In fact, the only way enemy aircraft can be damaged or destroyed is they attack you AND they get intercepted by one of your aircraft on intercept duty or by a SAM Inf or Mech Inf unit

It seems that interceptors cannot be stationed above any place other than cities. or carriers

If I have got any these generalisations on one aspect of this subject, please correct and explain simply (else I won't understand !)

(This post has arisen because I'm sick of having my planes damaged while carrying out air strikes !)

SmallBrain
13.April.2016
 
In the light of further (and unfortunate) experience, I have learned that

1. enemy fighters on intercept seem to cover their whole range, ie 6 tiles for fighters, not just the city tile of their origin

2. while in 'bomb' mode, at least, if you are intercepted by an enemy fighter there is a probability (IDK what that pr. is) you will damage or shoot it down (rather than the other way round). But as it has made the interception, you will not complete your original (bombing) mission.

So I haven't found a way of gaining air superiority (attacking interceptors and destroying them until there are none)

SmallBrain
17.April.2016
 
SmallBrain said:
So I haven't found a way of gaining air superiority (attacking interceptors and destroying them until there are none)
Click to expand...

The only way to do this in stock BtS is to send Fighters or Jet Fighters in a bomb/strike mission where the AI has interceptors set on an intercept mission. Better that your fighters battle the interceptors than have your bombers do it.

Some mods (LoR comes to mind) have a dedicated “Fighter Engage” mission which will attack AI fighters. I’m not sure, offhand, if that will attack fighters on the ground as opposed to only those set to intercept – will check.
 
Do ground Interceptors with Drill get their first strikes?
 
6K Man said:
The only way to do this in stock BtS is to send Fighters or Jet Fighters in a bomb/strike mission where the AI has interceptors set on an intercept mission. Better that your fighters battle the interceptors than have your bombers do it.
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Is this true? Bombers have a greater Strength than fighters, which means that they're more likely to win the combat if intercepted. They cost extra hammers, so there's more to lose if you lose your bomber, but is that not offset by the lesser chance of losing?
 
Ground interceptor's first strikes wouldn't do anything as ground interceptors can't be damaged anyway, unless it increased the number of possible combat rounds, but I don't think it does.

A bomber's higher strength means it would have greater chance of winning each combat round, but it only does 10hp damage per combat round won, whereas a fighter can do 50hp damage when wining a combat round. Even if the bomber emerges from the interception unscathed, it won't complete the bombing run.
 
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