Civilization IV Leader Traits: Self-Actualization, Axemen, and You

So you are saying PHI is not always useful?
I think with examples like that, you want to defend Pro but cannot make good arguments

Yep it's always good, and you will not find 1 single top player saying it's not.
Even if i have not much food, i can still create great peoples easily cos if i have just 1 city using 2 scientists, i get 2 great ones in only ~25 turns.

Same with SPI, it's always good.
You can always make use of switching civics without anarchy, first example already being slavery with BW. There are more, like Caste for 5 turns if you settle new cities that would like a quick border pop via an artist.

Also not sure why you are saying Cha loses value when isolated, it's actually the opposite case.
2 more happy are very very helpful if you cannot trade for resources with AIs..

It's not making much sense overall, but you seem sold on your opinion anyways.

I can't say I recall the old arguments against engineering, but my argument wouldn't be that early engineering isnt good, but rather that it's difficult to get engineering early enough on deity.

The bulb strat is nice, but it only works really well with a few leaders (Philo + no fishing) and conditions aren't always good for it.

Just teching straight to engineering doesn't typically result in getting it early enough to do a lot of damage, and you will also find yourself on the same tech path as the AI which severely limits trade opportunities.

I like Engineering though. Its just that the beakers needed to reach it without bulbs is quite high and then your army moves slow.

Fippy said:

So you are saying PHI is not always useful?
I think with examples like that, you want to defend Pro but cannot make good arguments

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Are you saying you've never had a food-poor map? Without the ability to run specialists, Philosophical does lose a great deal of its value.

Yep it's always good, and you will not find 1 single top player saying it's not.
Even if i have not much food, i can still create great peoples easily cos if i have just 1 city using 2 scientists, i get 2 great ones in only ~25 turns.

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Perhaps we're working with different definitions of "food-poor."

Same with SPI, it's always good.
You can always make use of switching civics without anarchy, first example already being slavery with BW. There are more, like Caste for 5 turns if you settle new cities that would like a quick border pop via an artist.

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But the argument you presented was that the trait isn't needed. You can still switch to Slavery and switch to Caste System without Spiritual. It's just more inefficient.

Also not sure why you are saying Cha loses value when isolated, it's actually the opposite case.
2 more happy are very very helpful if you cannot trade for resources with AIs..

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Only if the AI always has happiness resources that you don't and is always willing to trade them.

It's not making much sense overall, but you seem sold on your opinion anyways.

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Well, obviously I'm sold on my opinion. Otherwise I wouldn't be arguing it.

Just to clarify, I don't think Protective is great (earlier in this same thread I classified it as "Weak"). But it is in my experience consistently underrated, especially by two groups of people: those who've never bothered to try to use it and those who set up their map conditions (knowingly or not) to unduly favor other traits.

I'll reiterate my suggested rankings for traits, just to be sure nobody's misunderstanding:

Strongest:
Financial
Philosophical

Medium:
Spiritual
Creative
Industrious
Organized
Charismatic

Weak:
Aggressive
Expansive
Imperialistic
Protective

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And, again:

Neither Protective, Aggressive, nor Imperialistic is as strong in war as the only trait which directly boosts siege units (and every other military unit in the game) by lowering the promotion XP requirements – Charismatic. These traits therefore should not be ranked as highly as Charismatic. They belong in the weak category with Expansive. Not because they are worthless or useless, but because they are a collection of small or specialized bonuses rather than general or sweeping bonuses.

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Note also that none of the traits I listed as "always useful" did I put in the strongest category. Philosophical, when you can use it, is tremendous, but map conditions *can* screw you out of using it early on.

Bandobras Took said:

Philosophical, when you can use it, is tremendous, but map conditions *can* screw you out of using it early on.

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No they can not, if you are food poor you will appreciate that you only need a small amount of specialists for GP generation.

And if you are food poor, it's of great help that you can at least get something with PHI help.

Fippy said:

No they can not, if you are food poor you will appreciate that you only need a small amount of specialists for GP generation.

And if you are food poor, it's of great help that you can at least get something with PHI help.

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I again think we're working with different definitions of food-poor. If you can actually run specialists, you're not in food-poor territory.

Since all it takes to run two Specialists at size four is two grassland farms I don't think there are many "food-poor" maps as per your definition.

I guess if you have no freshwater grasslands and no 4+ food specials at all on the map (already highly impossible for the capital given the normaliser) then...well it won't matter which trait you have because you're not going to win anyway

Yep i am certainly not in the mood for discussing traits under extreme conditions, like not even reaching +4 food for 2 specialists.

If you cannot get 2 simple farms (not even speaking about resis), then why play a map.
I could do better with my time.

Bandobras Took said:

weak: imperialistic

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do you not build settlers?? how is this trait weak, lol.

edit: also, HOW TO LEVERAGE PROTECTIVE:

1) Rush Pyramids obviously
2) Tech to longbows.
3) Build wall city in the middle of a bunch of AI's with 10 longbows in it.
4) Declare war on everyone.
5) They all wreck their economy trying to take your city.
6) Collect great generals, settle them all in city with oxford and an academy.
7) with +9 beakers per settled great general, and a million settled great generals, you'll win a space victory in no time!

Foolproof strategy. always works, never fails.

One final note, then I'm out:

As evidenced by the last few responses, people undervalue Protective because they just give up when things actually start to get hard.

^ Show us links to your deity games and examples of your great skills, let's see if you are more than talking about others.

I have a lot of experience witha Masochistic Deity with very tough maps and, you know, playing a turtle doesn't win it for you. Transitioning to offense is what wins those games and Protective is of no use to you at that point unless you are Chinese and get free drill promo on Chu-Ko-Nus.
In early game you only need maybe one additional Archer to compensate for the lack of protective bonusses. If the game is that tough you'll get to Drill 4 guy without Protective anyway. Walls are cheap and can be chopped or whipped quite easily. Castles are useless as at that point of the game you should be well in the offensive mode.

First, even though I only play on prince I am often put into tight situations even when on the offensive. In these situations, for example a counterattack when I have found it quite useful to have troops which are able to withstand high amounts of collateral damage.
Second, my games are usually decided relatively late (medieval and renaissance) when it can be quite useful to have the protective trait.
Third, my original point was that all of these traits are really only supplemental. They provide support for the civilization, position and strategy, how good or bad they are is often highly circumstancial.

If you want half price buildings, CRE or ORG or AGG beats PRO.
If you want free promos, CHA beats PRO.

All of those other traits (except AGG) have other features that are better than PRO.