Favored Religious Beliefs

Nonevah

Prince
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Apr 17, 2011
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I always see recommendations to found a religion, but what I tend to find lacking is actual discussion of what people like to put in the religion, besides the Pantheon. What beliefs do you guys like to use? Especially for the founder, I don't see many people speak about this.
Assuming Immortal/Diety play.
 
The pantheon belief varies for me because the starting location doesnt always have the same resources. If theres no resources that you can benefit from then i go for god king because you get +1 from everything from the palace. The enhancer and follower beliefs are all good depending on whether theyre not taken or not. If cathedrals is taken then take mosques or if tithes is taken then gk for church property for example.
 
I'm only emperor normally, but I don't see my religion strategy changing that much.

Founder, my favorite is tithe, and it's normally not even close. Deviation from that is based on need. If I see a lot of land (I tend to play on huge maps, so that can happen), I might take ceremonial burial to help deal with happiness, but I consider it risky. A prophet has occasionally submarined my happiness at inopportune times. Game I'm playing now, I actually took papal primacy. At the time of my founding a religion, my landmass had 8 CS's and 2 other civs without a pantheon (neither one ended up founding a religion either). If I'm among the last religions and have no religious neighbors, I at least consider taking pilgrimage, as the extra faith can help my religion gain a foothold.

The buildings are popular for follower beliefs, but I don't normally love them. I generally only take a building if I get a late religion, don't plan on keeping it, and a good one is available, a rare combination. I have 5 "regular" beliefs. Choral Music is nice now, with culture being rarer and goes well with another belief I like and piety. Religious Centers goes well with that, or, standing alone, gives the biggest advantage of pagodas, 2 happiness, without any faith investment. Liturgical Drama gives a nice faith boost for a wide empire. Feed the World is actually really nice. Faster growth, bigger end game cities, and I never felt like the AI benefits as much with it's already insane growth. Religious Community can be a pretty massive increase in production, and like the extra food, the AI gets so many bonuses, it doesn't seem to help them as much, and, of course, the founder is less likely to have nearly pure religions in cities, further boosting me over the AI with the belief.

Enhancer is pretty well always itinerant preachers. Normally 1 or 2 extra cities can exert influence on any one city with it. If I can keep a decent number of cities in an area my religion, the AI is normally fighting a defensive religious battle.

As an extra note to that, and the overall strategy for my religion, I like to really spread it. The diplo game is really easy if you can get it around, and if it becomes the world religion, it's hard to repeal, hard to root out, and helps with tourism (or lack of culture, since no one else will get the tourism bonuses). Even just with CS's, getting your religion out there makes for massive savings.
 
I think almost everyone prefers Tithe as the founder belief. Free gold is great and it's not dependent on spreading your religion beyond your own cities if you don't want to (unlike World Church). I've picked Tithe in every one of my last 50+ games. Honestly I think it's a huge hole in the AI's programming for them to always leave it open.

For follower beliefs, a lot of people regard the "buildings" as OP - especially Mosques and Pagodas. If purchased early they will easily return the faith investment, and the per-city culture they provide is otherwise very scarce. I always select them if they are available when Founding. However, unless you have outstanding FPT I don't recommend picking another set of religious buildings when Enhancing. The faith costs will be escalating and the overall returns will be less. I usually pick Religious Community for the 15% production. Plowshares is also good (15% growth).

Religious Text is the most popular Enhancer belief, to maximize the number of followers and scale both Tithe and Religious Community.

Reformation beliefs are a little bit different since they require a bucket of SPs and not just faith. Sacred Sites is good for the ICS CV strategy, but that is it's own unique beast. For a 'regular' strategy IMO the only civ that can reliably Reform it's religion without suffering an extremely painful opportunity cost is Poland. And in that case, I really recommend Jesuit Education.
 
I play on deity so most of the benefits of religion are hard to secure and it becomes a major resource sink. Essentially its hard to put out decent faith generation without a) a favorable terrain pantheon, which is never assured, and/or b) several of the strong faith wonders such as stonehenge and hagia, which are all nearly impossible to get in deity. Even djenne is usually impossible to get despite being policy-locked, since like 50% of the AIs open piety.

I think if you get uluru or a desert start or a ton of gems, pearls, or quarries, its probably worthwhile to sink a decent amount of resources into establishing a strong regional religion, particularly if you're going for a cultural victory. Otherwise, I think you're just better off choosing beliefs that benefit your local empire the most and your religion is essentially a method of securing a strong pantheon and generating 2500 faith by late game for your two free GP. It's hard to argue with tithe and a decent religious building along with swords into plowshares or some other buff. They all end up translating to the same thing. Happiness buffs increase your effective population and that feeds into hammers/gold/beakers. SiP is a straight buff to hammers.

As far as the enhancer I think they're fairly well balanced. The one that increases pressure is good, but the one that increases pressure radius is sometimes better and generally competes quite well. The one that reduces missionary cost is also competitive with those two, and could easily be better if you don't have other things you're spending your faith on (i.e. no faith buildings).
 
I think almost everyone prefers Tithe as the founder belief. Free gold is great and it's not dependent on spreading your religion beyond your own cities if you don't want to (unlike World Church). I've picked Tithe in every one of my last 50+ games. Honestly I think it's a huge hole in the AI's programming for them to always leave it open.

For follower beliefs, a lot of people regard the "buildings" as OP - especially Mosques and Pagodas. If purchased early they will easily return the faith investment, and the per-city culture they provide is otherwise very scarce. I always select them if they are available when Founding. However, unless you have outstanding FPT I don't recommend picking another set of religious buildings when Enhancing. The faith costs will be escalating and the overall returns will be less. I usually pick Religious Community for the 15% production. Plowshares is also good (15% growth).

Religious Text is the most popular Enhancer belief, to maximize the number of followers and scale both Tithe and Religious Community.

Yup - I do this too.
 
If you can spread your religion early, Itinerant Preachers is nearly always stronger than Religious Texts, because of the high density of cities on Deity.
 
If you can spread your religion early, Itinerant Preachers is nearly always stronger than Religious Texts, because of the high density of cities on Deity.

With high city density, preachers gives huge results, easily multiplying the pressure your religion produces on surrounding cities.

However, with low city density, preachers causes pressure to reach cities that texts will not allow.

I have yet to see a game where texts is better than preachers, and though it's unpopular with the AI, if preachers is taken, I will generally go with another belief all together. Holy Missionaries if I plan on reforming is pretty good, making for cheap mini-prophets. Religious Unity is normally good otherwise. DOUBLE pressure on CS's makes them very hard for other religions to take over and provides continued pressure on cities that I normally want to convert anyway, as CS locations are normally great starting points to spreading religion. I have normally found it better than Texts, anyway, though my sample size for both is pretty tiny, just a few games each.
 
I found most games, but I have gotten bored with picking Tithe every time. Unfortunately, I just can't seem to get any mileage out of the rest, despite my best efforts. Only possible exception is Initiation Rights.

I think the main benefit to founding, as compared to picking up the good parts from multiple foreign religions, is the easy CS quests. Founder benefits are underpowered IMHO.

However, with low city density, preachers causes pressure to reach cities that texts will not allow.

Count those tiles! From a defensive perspective, it's only if the distance between your outlying cites is between 11-13 hexes that IP is better than RT. (OTOH, I prefer 5-6 tiles between cities, so that IP difference can very important to me.)

For spreading outside your empire on your starting continent, yes, IP is almost certainly significantly stronger than RT. But if you share the continent with even one AI that takes its religion seriously, my experience is that neither IP nor RT will have significant effect.

I have yet to see a game where texts is better than preachers

That is opposite of my experience, as I think most maps (that is, anything other than Pangaea) favor RT over IP. As compared to GnK, RT beats IP because of trade routes, where RT provides 50% more pressure (and IP has no effect). Trade routes can be used for CS conversion quests, saving you a GPr burn. If you have a city further than 13 hexes away, internal trade routes can keep them converted.

If you plan to fill out Piety and thus to make use of Religious Tolerance for the second pantheon belief, RT is terrific for managing those.

though it's unpopular with the AI, if preachers is taken, I will generally go with another belief all together.

I usually end up founding late, and still often have my pick of both RT or IP (when I would pleased to have either)! What is up with that?

Holy Missionaries if I plan on reforming is pretty good, making for cheap mini-prophets.

I have yet to have that one available, but it does seem very good. Cheaper GPr is my third favorite, and also excellent.

Religious Unity is normally good otherwise. DOUBLE pressure on CS's makes them very hard for other religions to take over and provides continued pressure on cities that I normally want to convert anyway, as CS locations are normally great starting points to spreading religion.

The CS never seem close enough to my core territory that I have been able to make RU work. But mostly I play the Continents Plus script, and one of its effects is to make the CS significantly more remote.

If I find a small continent with 2-4 CS all within 10 hexes of each other, and convert them all, would RU have its full effects even though none of my cities are in range? That is, does RU cause a CS with my religion to exert double religious on other nearby CS?

I don't really understand your emphasis on spreading your religion. You seem to imply that IP versus RT makes that straightforward. Further, you imply that want to keep the CS converted, when I feel the opposite is actually true (because the CS conversion quests can occur multiple times a game for the same CS).
 
I have yet to see a game where texts is better than preachers

I was on the IP bandwagon for months, and I think that in most situations, in terms of purely city-based pressure, IP has RT beat by a little bit. But IMO the Grand Temple + RT + trade routes combo more than makes up the difference.
 
Deity
Founder Nearly always Tithe maybe the one that gives you +2 gold per city if you've got DF and aren't throwing faith into Faith buildings

Follower beliefs are dependant on game goals and faith output
 
I always see recommendations to found a religion, but what I tend to find lacking is actual discussion of what people like to put in the religion, besides the Pantheon. What beliefs do you guys like to use? Especially for the founder, I don't see many people speak about this.
Assuming Immortal/Diety play.

For founder I ALWAYS pick Tithe. In fact if you're only self founding a few cities none of the other founder beliefs come close.
(If self founding wide then there is quite a number of founder beliefs with similar power.)

For pantheon, I normally go with a terrain specific one (that I have in that game) as opposed to the generic ones.

First Follower:
If my primary luxury is wine / incense and still available: Monstaries

else is Pagoda still available & my faith also high enough to support: Pagoda

Otherwise am I playing Indonesia: The one giving +2 from Gardens, including Indonesia's UB which can be built anywhere.

Else: The one giving +2 happiness from Temple

Enhancer: With BNW I strongly prefer Religious Texts because the extra power is included in trade routes which ignores distance. In addition, Religious Texts has always been more a self starter than IP.

Second Follower:
If I chose Monastery above:
What's left providing 2 happiness in every city?

Otherwise (with me having the happiness first follower belief)

Which one is left between Feed the World and the one providing a 15% hammer bonus?
If both are still available, if I've picked the happiness from regular temple I'm bound to pick Feed the World to stack.
 
On emperor? Get divine inspiration and build those wonders!
 
Count those tiles! From a defensive perspective, it's only if the distance between your outlying cites is between 11-13 hexes that IP is better than RT. (OTOH, I prefer 5-6 tiles between cities, so that IP difference can very important to me.)

If you have all cities in a straight line, IP will double pressure, against +50% with RT (and printing press) because your IP cities 12 tiles away will put pressure on cities they could not with RT. If your cities are set more organically, you're likely to get many more. cities between 11 and 13 tiles away from any other city.

For spreading outside your empire on your starting continent, yes, IP is almost certainly significantly stronger than RT. But if you share the continent with even one AI that takes its religion seriously, my experience is that neither IP nor RT will have significant effect.

I don't consider either that good at the initial spreading, which is best done by missionaries. Waiting for the first cities to flip is pretty slow without manually spreading. If waiting for religion to spread, if it is better to get the bonus strength from texts to get the first cities to adopt faster or influence more cities is pretty much a tossup in my mind.

I feel IP puts more pressure on civs that spam missionaries, because you might get up to 3 or 4 times as many cities applying religious pressure. If I take a prophet and bomb cities on the back side of their civ (either a religiously neutral neighbor or converting his cities), the long reaching effects of IP can put significant pressure on their cities.

Over the course of many MANY turns, I was once able to flip Thebes to my religion (it was the holy city of Islam, of course) though pressure from myself and Egypt's other neighbors, without manually converting even one of his cities, and those extra 3 spaces meant a lot to getting his satellite cities converted.


That is opposite of my experience, as I think most maps (that is, anything other than Pangaea) favor RT over IP. As compared to GnK, RT beats IP because of trade routes, where RT provides 50% more pressure (and IP has no effect). Trade routes can be used for CS conversion quests, saving you a GPr burn. If you have a city further than 13 hexes away, internal trade routes can keep them converted.

If you plan to fill out Piety and thus to make use of Religious Tolerance for the second pantheon belief, RT is terrific for managing those.

I rarely use trade routes for religion, I must admit. However, I can use trade routes to influence cities further away while my natural pressure influences those 11-13 tiles away from a city, so, again, it effectively doubles the pressure I can create with one city and one trade route (this effect is obviously lessened in wide empires and even better in all empires where there will be several trade routes per city founded.)


I usually end up founding late, and still often have my pick of both RT or IP (when I would pleased to have either)! What is up with that?

I agree. The AI doesn't seem to like it. I believe they get reduced cost on faith purchases though, which could make other beliefs look better for them. More goodies for me though :goodjob:


I have yet to have that one available, but it does seem very good. Cheaper GPr is my third favorite, and also excellent.

I'm just coming around to liking cheaper (or more points toward) great people as an amazing thing. I'd like to try that belief some time now, but I've yet to come up with a map where it looked good. I would consider it more late game. Around the industrial or atomic era, missionaries get too expensive, and a prophet or two can blow another religion off the face of the earth for good, so...on my to do list.


The CS never seem close enough to my core territory that I have been able to make RU work. But mostly I play the Continents Plus script, and one of its effects is to make the CS significantly more remote.

If I find a small continent with 2-4 CS all within 10 hexes of each other, and convert them all, would RU have its full effects even though none of my cities are in range? That is, does RU cause a CS with my religion to exert double religious on other nearby CS?

I don't really understand your emphasis on spreading your religion. You seem to imply that IP versus RT makes that straightforward. Further, you imply that want to keep the CS converted, when I feel the opposite is actually true (because the CS conversion quests can occur multiple times a game for the same CS).

I normally use continents (though I have mixed it up more recently, playing against a civ's strengths before moving up a difficulty level), and the result is often groups of CS's, or at least pairs. They aren't often that close to me (except 1 pair), but that is part of the beauty because, yes, your religion spreads to CS's at double rate, from any source. A core of 3 CS's far from me will often feed enough pressure into itself that I don't have to try to keep them (unless a prophet converts them, but then their next one is more expensive and they are easily converted back by missionaries) while also exerting pressure for my religion on surrounding cities (often enough so that even fairly late into the game, missionaries can convert them without much effort).

I don't think any religious beliefs make spreading a religion more straightforward. In fact, my personal emphasis on spreading religion speaks more toward my follower belief choices than anything, as I don't want to lose the religious war on one front and give buildings to a civ, and I put more faith into spreading my religion, so the buildings slow me down in that crucial time.

The reasoning behind it is mostly diplomatic (though, culturally, it can help as well), but it has nothing to do with my enhancer really, just the slower decay on CS allies, more friendly AI's toward me (and fewer toward other AI's), and the possibility of founding the world religion which can really push me to the forefront of world politics in the "world industrial era" (aka, when I research radio, there's rarely more than one world congress vote before that.)
 
If you have all cities in a straight line, IP will double pressure, against +50% with RT (and printing press) because your IP cities 12 tiles away will put pressure on cities they could not with RT. If your cities are set more organically, you're likely to get many more. cities between 11 and 13 tiles away from any other city.

However, if you have a substrained cargo routes to your capital anyway, then you get a boost from RT (especially after Grand Temple) regardless of distance.
In fact, its the capital that matters the most since it has that extra bonus.

In fact if playing Arabia in some cases the IP will actually reduce your faith to that city you have a trade route with. (Arabia's double faith bonus along trade routes [from source to destination only])
 
World Church is nice if you can get founded early and have good FPT to spread it around to close by cities.
 
World Church is nice if you can get founded early and have good FPT to spread it around to close by cities.

I played a diety game once as Byzantines on Continents and was the only one to found a religion on my continent. So I had tithe and world church. Crazily powerful combination there.

I do wish they'd give the religious beliefs a bit of a balance patch though. I'm ok with some beliefs being better than others, but when you find yourself (as everyone here does) choosing tithe every time then you know it needs some balancing.

I do think for instance something like removing 1 happiness from Cathedrals, Pagoda's and Mosques and making 'Mandate of Heaven' provide 1 happiness from religious buildings would be a good start.
Making a lot of the follower beliefs like Feed the World and Asceticism apply to the Grand Temple also is another approach.

The other way to spread which is quite a bit faster is to go Mandate of Heaven, Religious Order and Great Mosque/Borobudur and spam missionaries to your hearts content.
 
Pantheon: Map Dependent, priorities Faith > Culture > Production
Founder: Tithe > Pilgrimage > Papal Primacy
Follower: Any (2 of these) Pagodas > Cathedrals > Religious Community
Enhancer: Religious Texts > Messiah
Reformation: Jesuit Education > Charitable Missions (but I seldom Reform)
 
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