donkeyfish
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2016
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- 102
Haha, thats true.
But if Alhambra had been at all possible to get, I would be very tempted to join the ranks of the undeserved a time or two.
What is your favorite wonder?
- Thread starter SoonerJBD
- Start date
Haha, thats true.
But if Alhambra had been at all possible to get, I would be very tempted to join the ranks of the undeserved a time or two.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
For a peaceful Win Condition it would be:
Leaning Tower of Pisa > Temple of Artemis > Pyramids
It isnt even a debate, LToP is by far the best wonder in the game. The fact that it allows you to get an Engineer to get an (almost) guaranteed Globe Theatre, or, even better, snitch the Sistine Chapel from the AI is huge. This does not only help your culture game significantly, it also makes LToP the most significant wonder for a cultural victory, because by removing Sistine you are essentially crippling the AI that was going for it. You could always get a Scientist of course, which is also fantastic.
For a domination attempt I would rate them:
Macchu Picchu > Alhambra > Pyramids
Macchu is absolutely fantastic because it makes your road networks actually profitable. Otherwise they would be a huge drain on the economy. Strategic roads are one of the biggest parts of a domination victory. Alhambra is pretty self-explainatory. I think the most significant bonus is not getting March out of the gate but rather being able to go double cover promotion very early and being able to pick the siege promotion for your XCom, speeding up the endgame significantly. Pyramids is insane in conjunction with the pillage-repair tactic. Often time I will leave an enemy city alive just to farm one or two hundred gold per turn by pillaging.
Leaning Tower of Pisa > Temple of Artemis > Pyramids
It isnt even a debate, LToP is by far the best wonder in the game. The fact that it allows you to get an Engineer to get an (almost) guaranteed Globe Theatre, or, even better, snitch the Sistine Chapel from the AI is huge. This does not only help your culture game significantly, it also makes LToP the most significant wonder for a cultural victory, because by removing Sistine you are essentially crippling the AI that was going for it. You could always get a Scientist of course, which is also fantastic.
For a domination attempt I would rate them:
Macchu Picchu > Alhambra > Pyramids
Macchu is absolutely fantastic because it makes your road networks actually profitable. Otherwise they would be a huge drain on the economy. Strategic roads are one of the biggest parts of a domination victory. Alhambra is pretty self-explainatory. I think the most significant bonus is not getting March out of the gate but rather being able to go double cover promotion very early and being able to pick the siege promotion for your XCom, speeding up the endgame significantly. Pyramids is insane in conjunction with the pillage-repair tactic. Often time I will leave an enemy city alive just to farm one or two hundred gold per turn by pillaging.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
You said its not a debate so i guess ill shut up 
Ok to answer to OP instead of only react to things that i dont agree with:
(near) always:
-ToA is beyond awesome if you can build it without giving up too much on your early expansion needs.
-Great Library is not super awesome, but you need a library anyway so the cost is effectively reduced and the free tech can be very useful to get philo for NC, theology for max value in your effort to tech for education asap or currency for Petra and to get to Civil Service asap
-Oracle is a very fine wonder if you can build it after getting access to rationalism.
-Notre Dame is awesome if you need the happiness, which is often the case.
-All the wonders that produce a scientist / great person of choise are nice for your bulb rush to reach your target victory tech.
Situational:
Petra is beyond awesome if you have the right city site for it.
Great Lighthouse is very nice on archipel if your strategy involves conquest.
Cultural victory i guess requires a bunch of wonders with nice theming bonus.
All together, ToA wins it hands down.
Ok to answer to OP instead of only react to things that i dont agree with:
(near) always:
-ToA is beyond awesome if you can build it without giving up too much on your early expansion needs.
-Great Library is not super awesome, but you need a library anyway so the cost is effectively reduced and the free tech can be very useful to get philo for NC, theology for max value in your effort to tech for education asap or currency for Petra and to get to Civil Service asap
-Oracle is a very fine wonder if you can build it after getting access to rationalism.
-Notre Dame is awesome if you need the happiness, which is often the case.
-All the wonders that produce a scientist / great person of choise are nice for your bulb rush to reach your target victory tech.
Situational:
Petra is beyond awesome if you have the right city site for it.
Great Lighthouse is very nice on archipel if your strategy involves conquest.
Cultural victory i guess requires a bunch of wonders with nice theming bonus.
All together, ToA wins it hands down.
Wild_Woojsha
Scourge_Of_G0d
Gonna have to go with the Pentagon!!!! 
Please see the original post, which specifically said we are not talking about most optimal, and that I was asking for subjective opinions about your favorite wonders. Tower of Pisa is great. But the entire premise of this thread is that we aren't arguing about "best." This is a question of taste, not a measurement of numbers.
Gonna have to go with the Pentagon!!!!
It's in my top three, for sure. Save money up, combine with policies for dirt cheap modern military force.
sixty4half
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2015
- Messages
- 406
Stonehenge. Love it so much. just wish that I could build it more often. I mean come on. You get a pantheon 2 turns later and a religion in another ~20-25 turns. This often beats civs like Celts, Byzantines and Ethiopia. Then, 100 turns later, you get a GE. What's not to love. If only it were obtainable in Emperor, Immortal and Diety.
KingKong76
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2015
- Messages
- 240
Well... I know its not over power, but I kind of like Notre-Dame... It really makes things easy to grow (tall, wide, conquest... pck your favorite) and provide an extra 4 faith... abit late for faith, but still... Hard to build on Deity tho...
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
My favorite Civs are Poland, Korea, Maya and Shoshone. Do you see where I'm going with this? LToP is my favorite wonder because it's essentially two wonders. ToA is one of my favorite wonders because I love seeing that green pop-up every turn. Some things can be overpowered, flavour of the month, cheesy or whatever you deem them to be, but that doesn't mean they can't be someone's favorite. I just love competitive stuff. I play games for the competition, that's where the fun is at to me. I read your OP. Didn't come here to argue, just wanted to make a bold post
sixty4half
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2015
- Messages
- 406
My favorite Civs are Poland, Korea, Maya and Shoshone. Do you see where I'm going with this? LToP is my favorite wonder because it's essentially two wonders. ToA is one of my favorite wonders because I love seeing that green pop-up every turn. Some things can be overpowered, flavour of the month, cheesy or whatever you deem them to be, but that doesn't mean they can't be someone's favorite. I just love competitive stuff. I play games for the competition, that's where the fun is at to me. I read your OP. Didn't come here to argue, just wanted to make a bold post
I don't think it's your opinion that put people off. More of the "It's not even a debate" comment that you made. This completely dismisses EVERYONE ELSE'S opinion. Sure you can have an opinion. Sure you can like top tier Civs and Wonders. But everyone else is allowed an opinion too.
LToP is great because it synergies so well with some of the best Civs. Same with Oracle and Poland. I used to love Porcelain Tower, but it got nerfed hard in the expansions. Still good for the free scientist, but research agreements are much more situational now.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
How is it 2 wonders ?
If you choose an engineer, its merely turning 1 wonder into another.
The "value" of the 25% great people points is (often more than) negated by the increased cost of every future great scientist/engineer/merchant.
That would be an argument (maybe) against taking a GE with Pisa, but not against building the wonder. For 500 hammers you get the equivalent of a maintenance-free Garden (or a National Epic) in every city. Four Gardens alone is 480 hammers (and you can still build Gardens and the National Epic, for more GPP boosts). For any game that is aiming for Great Person generation, Pisa is a great wonder.
Pisa's "not so free" Great Person is the gravy, while the GPP boost is the meat in that dish.
Pisa's "not so free" Great Person is the gravy, while the GPP boost is the meat in that dish.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I usually simply consider it a free great person you buy with the wonder very similar to the porcelain tower.
The 25% stands against the increased price of the next great person.
I am not saying its a bad wonder. I build it very often, just like the porcelain tower. But usually not before that final bulbing push.
Of course putting the increased price vs the 25% doesnt always turn out the same. If you dont plan, in most cases it will simply cancel eachother out, but it could be better or worse.
Proper calculation and planning might in rare cases allow you to get an extra scientist from GPP and thus gain 2 scientists by end game although i am not sure if that possible, i havent succeeded at that yet.
A lack of planning can, also in rare cases, cause the increased price to totally beat the 25% and even "lose" you the great scientist that you have gotten for free as you will generate 1 less from GPP.
If you care a lot about the writers, artists and musicians, it does have some added value. So yes, for culture games it has its use to build it earlier.
But you better plan carefully to make sure you wont be producing less scientists from GPP.
The 25% stands against the increased price of the next great person.
I am not saying its a bad wonder. I build it very often, just like the porcelain tower. But usually not before that final bulbing push.
Of course putting the increased price vs the 25% doesnt always turn out the same. If you dont plan, in most cases it will simply cancel eachother out, but it could be better or worse.
Proper calculation and planning might in rare cases allow you to get an extra scientist from GPP and thus gain 2 scientists by end game although i am not sure if that possible, i havent succeeded at that yet.
A lack of planning can, also in rare cases, cause the increased price to totally beat the 25% and even "lose" you the great scientist that you have gotten for free as you will generate 1 less from GPP.
If you care a lot about the writers, artists and musicians, it does have some added value. So yes, for culture games it has its use to build it earlier.
But you better plan carefully to make sure you wont be producing less scientists from GPP.
Do you find Pisa still available during the later game, when you are approaching the time for your GS bulb-fest? The AI doesn't usually beeline Pisa, like it does some other wonders (mainly because Pisa is on a direct line to a few civs', but not that many civs', unique units, which is usually the driver for early AI wonder-building), but I rarely see it lasting that late in my games (and not just because I'm the one who builds it earlier 
).
But you raise an interesting question: is getting an early GS and +25% GPP in all cities actually a bad deal for GS generation? Since I can't recall ever mapping out the arithmetic, I decided to noodle through it this evening.
A Pisa GS (or GE or GM, for that matter, and the GS from PT) will increase the cost of every subsequent GS by 100 GPP. So, if you built Pisa when you had already generated 2 GSs, the Pisa GS would come in place of your 300 GPP GS, so your next GS would be 400 GPP, then 500, 600, etc.
Let's assume your goal was just to generate 8 GSs from GPP sources, without the distraction of Hubble, Porcelain Tower, Pisa, the ISS or the Liberty finisher. In that case, you would need 3,600 cumulative GS GPP to spawn 8 GSs.
So let's explore two scenarios. In each scenario you goal is 8 naturally spawned GSs (could be 9, 10 or more, but I don't think that affects the analysis), plus 1 from Pisa, 1 from PT, 2 from Hubble and 3 from faith (the 1,000, 1,500 and 2,500 faith GSs, for total 5,000 faith). This means you aren't going Order (for the Tier 3 tenet that provides 1 GE and 1 GS), using the Liberty finisher for a GS, or building the ISS, but I think it is all OK for purposes of this analysis.
I'm also ignoring the effects of Humanism (+25% spawn rate for GSs) and any tenet that boosts Great Person generation rate -- both of those would speed up the turn counts for GS spawns, but you can take those, or not take those, whether you built Pisa early, built it late or never built it at all. They are easily enough layered into the computations, but I chose to leave them aside, just to keep this as simple as possible.
So, in each scenario you have a 4-city Tradition empire, with a Garden in each city and National Epic in your capital. You get Education on turn 100 (just to simplify the turn count, but that is also a reasonable turn time, though perhaps a bit on the speedy side for many civs), Scientific Theory on turn 150, and Plastics on turn 200 (again, simplifying the turn counts, but those are not far off a reasonably speedy pace). In each case, you have enough gold to rush-buy 4 universities, 4 public schools and 4 labs on the turns you finish those techs, and you work those scientist slots immediately and continually. And finally, to again simplify the turn count, we assume you want to begin your GS bulb-fest on turn 230, just after you finish Hubble and buy the last of your faith-bought GSs.
In scenario 1, you are confident that you can delay building both Pisa and PT until after you have generated your 8 natural GSs, so the sequence in Scenario 1 is generate 8 GSs, build Pisa, build PT, build Hubble, faith-buy 3 GSs, and then bulb -- all by turn 230. In scenario 2, you slip Pisa into the build order to finish after you generate natural GS 2 and before you generate natural GS 3. PT and Hubble still get built after you've generated 8 natural GSs, plus the "free" GS from Pisa. And in each scenario, we assume you generate no GEs or GMs (ever), other than a single faith-bought GE to rush Hubble.
In both scenarios, you would expect to generate your first GS (from your capital) on about turn 112 (Note: for all of this, I'm ignoring GS points from wonders, like Oracle -- I don't think they affect the analysis, but they are an arithmetic complication I am ignoring). Your second GS then pops out of city 2 on about turn 127.
In Scenario 1, you still need to generate another 3,300 GS points to spawn 6 more GSs. They should pop out as follows:
GS 3 - about turn 140 in city 3
GS 4 - about turn 144 in your capital
GS 5 - about turn 162 in city 4 (public school on turn 150 speeds it up a bit)
GS 6 - about turn 170 in city 2
GS 7 - about turn 179 in city 3
GS 8 - about turn 205 in your capital
Note that, if we didn't build Pisa, PT and Hubble after GS 8, your natural GS 9 would spawn in city 4 on about turn 231. But if you generate 4 GSs from those wonders, GS 9 will be greatly delayed (in this scenario it would be generated in your capital somewhere around turn 270, depending on when you actually built Pisa). So, depending on how fast you expect to finish that game, delaying Pisa and PT until after turn 231 (in this example) might be helpful.
Anyway, in scenario 2, you build Pisa between GS 2 and GS 3 -- let's say that Pisa is completed on turn 130, for ease of computation. GS 3 is now actually GS 4, and costs 400 GS points, instead of 300, and so forth through natural GS 8 (really GS 9). So, instead of your natural GSs costing you a cumulative 3,600 GS points, they cost a cumulative 4,200 GS points (6 GSs for an extra 100 GS points apiece). But Pisa does provide an additional 25% GPP from the time it is built, so how does all that affect GS spawn timing?
Scenario 2's GSs 3 through 8 (really, GSs 4 through 9, since Pisa's is really GS 3) should pop out as follows:
GS 4 - about turn 143 in your capital
GS 5 - about turn 158 in city 3
GS 6 - about turn 169 in city 4
GS 7 - about turn 179 in city 2
GS 8 - about turn 194 in your capital
GS 9 - about turn 218 in city 3
Yes, it does appear that taking a Pisa GS will slow down the spawning of subsequent GSs by a bit.
So, IF you are confident that you can delay taking Pisa that long (I'm not, but YMMV), you would benefit by delaying building Pisa until you are done spawning natural GSs.
Of course, if you lost Pisa to another player, you would need to generate a 9th natural GS to fill the gap left by the missing Pisa GS, which would force you to delay taking PT and Hubble until after GS 9 spawns (around turn 230 in Scenario 1).
Anyway, this was very interesting. Thanks for raising this point.
).But you raise an interesting question: is getting an early GS and +25% GPP in all cities actually a bad deal for GS generation? Since I can't recall ever mapping out the arithmetic, I decided to noodle through it this evening.
A Pisa GS (or GE or GM, for that matter, and the GS from PT) will increase the cost of every subsequent GS by 100 GPP. So, if you built Pisa when you had already generated 2 GSs, the Pisa GS would come in place of your 300 GPP GS, so your next GS would be 400 GPP, then 500, 600, etc.
Let's assume your goal was just to generate 8 GSs from GPP sources, without the distraction of Hubble, Porcelain Tower, Pisa, the ISS or the Liberty finisher. In that case, you would need 3,600 cumulative GS GPP to spawn 8 GSs.
So let's explore two scenarios. In each scenario you goal is 8 naturally spawned GSs (could be 9, 10 or more, but I don't think that affects the analysis), plus 1 from Pisa, 1 from PT, 2 from Hubble and 3 from faith (the 1,000, 1,500 and 2,500 faith GSs, for total 5,000 faith). This means you aren't going Order (for the Tier 3 tenet that provides 1 GE and 1 GS), using the Liberty finisher for a GS, or building the ISS, but I think it is all OK for purposes of this analysis.
I'm also ignoring the effects of Humanism (+25% spawn rate for GSs) and any tenet that boosts Great Person generation rate -- both of those would speed up the turn counts for GS spawns, but you can take those, or not take those, whether you built Pisa early, built it late or never built it at all. They are easily enough layered into the computations, but I chose to leave them aside, just to keep this as simple as possible.
So, in each scenario you have a 4-city Tradition empire, with a Garden in each city and National Epic in your capital. You get Education on turn 100 (just to simplify the turn count, but that is also a reasonable turn time, though perhaps a bit on the speedy side for many civs), Scientific Theory on turn 150, and Plastics on turn 200 (again, simplifying the turn counts, but those are not far off a reasonably speedy pace). In each case, you have enough gold to rush-buy 4 universities, 4 public schools and 4 labs on the turns you finish those techs, and you work those scientist slots immediately and continually. And finally, to again simplify the turn count, we assume you want to begin your GS bulb-fest on turn 230, just after you finish Hubble and buy the last of your faith-bought GSs.
In scenario 1, you are confident that you can delay building both Pisa and PT until after you have generated your 8 natural GSs, so the sequence in Scenario 1 is generate 8 GSs, build Pisa, build PT, build Hubble, faith-buy 3 GSs, and then bulb -- all by turn 230. In scenario 2, you slip Pisa into the build order to finish after you generate natural GS 2 and before you generate natural GS 3. PT and Hubble still get built after you've generated 8 natural GSs, plus the "free" GS from Pisa. And in each scenario, we assume you generate no GEs or GMs (ever), other than a single faith-bought GE to rush Hubble.
In both scenarios, you would expect to generate your first GS (from your capital) on about turn 112 (Note: for all of this, I'm ignoring GS points from wonders, like Oracle -- I don't think they affect the analysis, but they are an arithmetic complication I am ignoring). Your second GS then pops out of city 2 on about turn 127.
In Scenario 1, you still need to generate another 3,300 GS points to spawn 6 more GSs. They should pop out as follows:
GS 3 - about turn 140 in city 3
GS 4 - about turn 144 in your capital
GS 5 - about turn 162 in city 4 (public school on turn 150 speeds it up a bit)
GS 6 - about turn 170 in city 2
GS 7 - about turn 179 in city 3
GS 8 - about turn 205 in your capital
Note that, if we didn't build Pisa, PT and Hubble after GS 8, your natural GS 9 would spawn in city 4 on about turn 231. But if you generate 4 GSs from those wonders, GS 9 will be greatly delayed (in this scenario it would be generated in your capital somewhere around turn 270, depending on when you actually built Pisa). So, depending on how fast you expect to finish that game, delaying Pisa and PT until after turn 231 (in this example) might be helpful.
Anyway, in scenario 2, you build Pisa between GS 2 and GS 3 -- let's say that Pisa is completed on turn 130, for ease of computation. GS 3 is now actually GS 4, and costs 400 GS points, instead of 300, and so forth through natural GS 8 (really GS 9). So, instead of your natural GSs costing you a cumulative 3,600 GS points, they cost a cumulative 4,200 GS points (6 GSs for an extra 100 GS points apiece). But Pisa does provide an additional 25% GPP from the time it is built, so how does all that affect GS spawn timing?
Scenario 2's GSs 3 through 8 (really, GSs 4 through 9, since Pisa's is really GS 3) should pop out as follows:
GS 4 - about turn 143 in your capital
GS 5 - about turn 158 in city 3
GS 6 - about turn 169 in city 4
GS 7 - about turn 179 in city 2
GS 8 - about turn 194 in your capital
GS 9 - about turn 218 in city 3
Yes, it does appear that taking a Pisa GS will slow down the spawning of subsequent GSs by a bit.
So, IF you are confident that you can delay taking Pisa that long (I'm not, but YMMV), you would benefit by delaying building Pisa until you are done spawning natural GSs.
Of course, if you lost Pisa to another player, you would need to generate a 9th natural GS to fill the gap left by the missing Pisa GS, which would force you to delay taking PT and Hubble until after GS 9 spawns (around turn 230 in Scenario 1).
Anyway, this was very interesting. Thanks for raising this point.
sixty4half
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2015
- Messages
- 406
Alternatively; you could use Pisa to generate Great Artists, pop the GA for a Golden Age and not affect your GS/GE generation at all.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
"Didn't come here to argue, just wanted to make a bold post."
Don't take everything in life so serious my friend
I completely trust Brows calculations so I won't say that it does not slow down your natural GS creation, but in my opinion that is a tradeoff that is definitely worth it. One of the biggest culture wonders midgame can mean one or two policies more by the end game, it means finishing Rationalism faster, getting to your Ideology tenets faster, it helps with ideology pressure and it cripples the AI culture leader (to be fair, that is only really important if you are aiming for a CV). Not to even begin how much 25% faster GW and GA help with filling Rat faster. Especially if you can save two for after winning the WF in combination with a GA.
I never said it was a "free" second wonder, it comes at a big cost. But it's definitely worth it, no matter if you go with Globe Theatre for the Wonder and the GW or if you get Sistine.
Thank you so much for this, I have always wondered
lol how much the +25% GPP really means.
Of course, or a Great Prophet, or anything but a GS, GE or GM. But the idea I wanted to test was whether getting Pisa for an extra GS was "worth it." It would have been pretty stunning if Pisa's +25% had precisely outweighed the additional GS cost, so taking a GS with Pisa truly had no "cost" (in terms of materially delaying subsequent GSs). It does have a cost, but (and I should note this) it is far better to take Pisa early than to take PT early without ALSO taking Pisa. PT's GS will just increase the cost of subsequent GSs, while at least Pisa offsets some of that cost with its 25% bonus.
All that being said, if I can get GSs from Pisa and PT, I will probably keep doing so -- particularly Pisa, since I find its 25% bonus so helpful for keeping up the flow of GWAMs. Given how important culture is to many elements of the game, and with just a single guild for each type of GWAM, every boost to their generation rate is helpful (particularly in games where I probably won't be taking the Aesthetics opener).
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Maybe if I wasn't such a lazy person I'd try the calculations for Pisa with the additional +1 GSP from Oracle, the +25% GSP from Rationalism and the +25% GPP from Ideology and see if it makes a difference. I highly doubt it'd be more than a few turns though.
