SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

OK. How's this for a plan: Tech Currency and then leave enough gold in reserve to tech Masonry just in time? If we're not planning for GW fail gold, we don't really need it until a) we want to improve the stone for StoneCity to work or b) we want to start the GLH. Getting it any sooner than that is wasteful.

Regarding Paris and worker MM, I think LC's latest worker MM (improves CU with new worker) and original Paris build order still makes sense. The only change we may want to make is to improve the horse resource before the stone.

Regarding Fredburg, settle 1S of where the settler is and start a work boat. When we whip the WB, all of the hammers we put into the WB will transfer into the granary since a WB is 30H. Worker will improve sheep and then chop one forest to kick start the WB/granary builds. I'm away from the save so I'm not sure which forest I'd chop but it will be one that promotes the most forest regrowth chances.

How will the scout safely explore NE through the jungle with human barbs around? Should we instead use him in some other way?

The exploring warrior will explore Sal unless there is something more important for him to do... like go NE to find the next AI???

Jesus will explore Joao.

Who do we want to enable with Writing or other techs? Or do we hold on until Currency is in so we can cash in? It seems that giving our intended partners Writing so that they can get their libraries going sooner would be a good thing but I'm still undecided.

EDIT: Our worker stealer will make sure that the critical tile is defogged by Fredburg and then head back to look for his next victim.

If we settled on the sheep AND got GLH there, we could flip Hamburg.

I don't think we have a prayer of getting GLH if we tech Currency first, but maybe someone can show a plan where we set up a bunch of whip OFs after we finish wb, granary, lh.
My plan would include those 3 things and then grow while building GLH in stonecity (using both stone and horses). Then 5->3 whip an axe, and/or spear and/or Rax. We'd want to prep the axe and/or spear with 1 hammer early on. When we are size 1, but no too early that it decays.
I would tech masonry, math, currency

I'd like the warrior to get a good look at Sal and then Egypt.

The goal is to defog a possible sailing trade route to India/Persia. Thru Egypt, past Saudia Arabia/Yemen. i.e. Connect the Mediterranean to the Arabian Sea.
Maybe the scout can help with this task.

If we are not going for Math like I want, then we should spread Writing around, among other things. I'd have to look at who we should warm up to.

2nd thought, this is Monarch and it looks like the AI have a lot of food, but not really much commerce. Alex will eventually have gems, but can't work them yet. Persia has 2 silver. Tech won't be fast like last SG. I think we should be generous with tech so we get IW sooner, etc.

WastinTime said:

If we settled on the sheep AND got GLH there, we could flip Hamburg.

I don't think we have a prayer of getting GLH if we tech Currency first, but maybe someone can show a plan where we set up a bunch of whip OFs after we finish wb, granary, lh.
My plan would include those 3 things and then grow while building GLH in stonecity (using both stone and horses). Then 5->3 whip an axe, and/or spear and/or Rax. We'd want to prep the axe and/or spear with 1 hammer early on. When we are size 1, but no too early that it decays.
I would tech masonry, math, currency

Click to expand...

WT, we don't need Masonry for at least 10 turns if we want to quarry the stone ASAP and we won't need it for actually putting hammers into the GLH until after StoneCity has built a work boat, right?

I suggest that we not tech Masonry until we need it. As I said, we may luck out and get it in trade or at a minimum, get a few extra bonus beakers on it if additional AIs learn it.

If we go with this plan of trying for the GLH, I would go Math -> Masonry. But with such a late start on it and with many AIs already having Sailing, I'm not sure we'll get it in time...

WastinTime said:

If we are not going for Math like I want, then we should spread Writing around, among other things. I'd have to look at who we should warm up to.

2nd thought, this is Monarch and it looks like the AI have a lot of food, but not really much commerce. Alex will eventually have gems, but can't work them yet. Persia has 2 silver. Tech won't be fast like last SG. I think we should be generous with tech so we get IW sooner, etc.

Click to expand...

This makes sense if we're planning to delay Currency until after Math and Masonry. All of the small techs that we could sell will likely be researched by then.

So we should decide now who will be our trading partners and who to keep in the Stone Age (like Fred and Stalin). Then we can enable the right AIs.

LowtherCastle said:

Is it more optimal to chop/1whip the granary, then 1whip the nets? The fish adds 3f to 5f, +60%. The granary adds food almost 1:1, +90%.

Click to expand...

wait, what? fish nets would be +150%

For the record, per AlanH's and BSP's recommendation, I took the tech trade save without OBs (i.e. the latest one) and then opened borders with Hatty and Sal. We should be good now.

Math is an 11 to 13-turn tech pre-founding of Fredburg. I'm assuming that we go ahead and chop the forest under StoneCity and one into Fredburg's workboat pre-Math, right?

I'll chop the forest that the settler is standing on since it can't re-grow an adjacent forest once we've settled.

I don't think Fredburg is the best place to build the GLH (no hammer tiles) and I think that we'll capture Hamburg with units well before we could flip it with culture. I still like settling it 1S of where the settler stands (i.e. sheep-SW).

WastinTime said:

I'd like the warrior to get a good look at Sal and then Egypt.

The goal is to defog a possible sailing trade route to India/Persia. Thru Egypt, past Saudia Arabia/Yemen. i.e. Connect the Mediterranean to the Arabian Sea.
Maybe the scout can help with this task.

Click to expand...

Just getting the scout safely to this area will be a challenge with barbs around. Keeping him alive outside of AI culture is going to be a challenge with all of the hills and jungle around. Maybe I can use him to scout south of India but it's doubtful that there is anything down there. We really want to find the AI in the NE (assuming that's where it is). Maybe he could just hang out in Gandhi's territory waiting for an AI unit to show up like Mao did.

WastinTime said:

wait, what? fish nets would be +150%

Click to expand...

at Pop1: 5fpt, citizen works sheep, chop nets.
at Pop2: 8fpt, sheep+fish, a gain of 3fpt from 5fpt to 8fpt, that is a 60% gain.
to pop3: costs 24f
to pop4: costs 26f
at pop4: costs ~12f, 2whip granary at half full
to pop3: costs ~12f to fill granary
Total cost after chopping wb: ~74f to pop3+full granary (12f).

at Pop1: 5fpt, citizen works sheep, chop grranary.
at pop2: costs ~11f, 1whip granary at half full
to pop2: costs 11f, 1whip boat
to pop2: costs 11f
to pop3: costs 12f, work sheep+fish
Total cost: ~45f to pop3 +full garanary (12f)

Brown numbers. Didn't evaluate associated turn costs.

EDIT: (The Pollina Variant?)
at pop1: 5fpt, citizen works sheep, chop granary.
at pop2: 1whip nets
to pop2: 22f
to pop3: costs 24f, work sheep+fish
at pop3: costs 12f, 1whip granary at half full
to pop3: costs 12f
Total cost: ~70f to pop3+full granary (12f).

EDIT: (The Pollina Variant)
at pop1: 5fpt, citizen works sheep, chop granary.
at pop2: 1whip nets
to pop2: 22f
at pop2: costs 11f, 1whip granary at half full
to pop2: costs 11f
to pop3: costs 12f
Total cost: ~56f to pop3+full granary (12f).

Note that this is also oversimplified because the chop is only 20h, so the fish nets and granary can't be chopped immediately at pop2. The nets care, the granary doesn't.


.

@LC

Good analysis. I think we have to look at turns and not just food. Plus, as you said, one 20H chop won't finish the fish nets nor will it set up a granary for a 1-pop whip. It may make sense to work a 2F1H tile for 3 turns while waiting for the sheep to be pastured.

In Kossin's micro challenge, it seemed better to improve one food then one-whip the granary than to improve two foods. In that challenge, you didn't start with a worker so building a WB first was the fastest way to get one food resource improved. In this case, we have a worker already so it may make more sense to go straight for the granary. Let me work on this for a bit and I'll get back to ya'll.

Only AIs with Masonry: Churchill, Mehmed, Joao, Hatty. Let them build it.

~~~

Alexandria + = GLib + Representation = 12bpt for 2 scientists. That's ~ +25% bpt.

SOme numbers from the test save:

Mitchum said:

@LC

Good analysis. I think we have to look at turns and not just food. Plus, as you said, one 20H chop won't finish the fish nets nor will it set up a granary for a 1-pop whip. It may make sense to work a 2F1H tile for 3 turns while waiting for the sheep to be pastured.

In Kossin's micro challenge, it seemed better to improve one food then one-whip the granary than to improve two foods. In that challenge, you didn't start with a worker so building a WB first was the fastest way to get one food resource improved. In this case, we have a worker already so it may make more sense to go straight for the granary. Let me work on this for a bit and I'll get back to ya'll.

Click to expand...

In granary first, we want to grow to pop2 + almost half full anyway, so you might not need to work 1f2h before pop2. SOme optimization.

Addendum: Plus GLib City has had two GSes already = Academy and settled sci? Sheesus. How many bpts is that at 0% slider? 31?
Note that Isanbul also built an academy with its GS.

I'm thinking we tech Masonry-HBR while

• finishing our initial REX
• putting hammers into the GW
• building RAX (+ Stables) in one city
• building 2 galleys in FurCity
• building an axe or three
• building a chariot for stealing workers
• opening safe TR paths somehow (via Stalin's coast?)

Then just go hogwild capturing juicy AI cities.

Also plan to put OF hammers into Moai everywhere and then build it at the best site.

Bear in mind that this is a flat map = half-priced distance maintenance and we're organized, so we'll have 2whip courthouses and half-priced civics costs. Cash flows are not as difficult to maintain.

Tech Currency after HBR. Get Math in trade.

Here are the turn numbers I had for each variant for Fredburg:

Granary first:
T0 - Anarchy
T1 to T2 - work 2F1H forest
T4 - sheep pasture done
T7 - grow to 2 (24F and 9H)
T9 - chop resolves; whip granary
T11 - grow to 2; whip work boat
T15 - grow to 2 (may be sooner but depends on food OF)
T17 - grow to 3 - granary should be half full
Totals: 80F, 101H, 34C, 2

WB first:
T0 - Anarchy
T1 - work 2F1H forest
T2 - switch to sheep because +1F speed up growth to 3 pops by 1 turn
T4 - sheep pasture done
T7 - grow to 2 (24F and 9H)
T9 - chop resolves; WB complete (31H)
T10 - grow to 3
T14 - grow to 4; whip granary
T17 - grow to 3 - granary should be half full
Totals: 102F, 103H; 48C, 1

Maybe I missed something on the food OF but it looks like WB first wins with respect to total commerce and whip anger. Whip timing may not have been optimum either...

Mitchum said:

Here are the turn numbers I had for each variant for Fredburg:

Granary first:
T0 - Anarchy
T1 to T2 - work 2F1H forest
T4 - sheep pasture done
T7 - grow to 2 (24F and 9H)
T9 - chop resolves; whip granary
T11 - grow to 2; whip work boat
T15 - grow to 2 (may be sooner but depends on food OF)
T17 - grow to 3 - granary should be half full
Totals: 80F, 101H, 34C, 2

WB first:
T0 - Anarchy
T1 - work 2F1H forest
T2 - switch to sheep because +1F speed up growth to 3 pops by 1 turn
T4 - sheep pasture done
T7 - grow to 2 (24F and 9H)
T9 - chop resolves; WB complete (31H)
T10 - grow to 3
T14 - grow to 4; whip granary
T17 - grow to 3 - granary should be half full
Totals: 102F, 103H; 48C, 1

Maybe I missed something on the food OF but it looks like WB first wins with respect to total commerce and whip anger. Whip timing may not have been optimum either...

Click to expand...

Very . Just goes to show what I always used to argue with Jesusin. In fastest finish, it's all about turns. Turns are the unit of analysis.

LowtherCastle said:

Addendum: Plus GLib City has had two GSes already = Academy and settled sci? Sheesus. How many bpts is that at 0% slider? 31?
Note that Isanbul also built an academy with its GS.

I'm thinking we tech Masonry-HBR while

• finishing our initial REX
• putting hammers into the GW
• building RAX (+ Stables) in one city
• building 2 galleys in FurCity
• building an axe or three
• building a chariot for stealing workers
• opening safe TR paths somehow (via Stalin's coast?)

Then just go hogwild capturing juicy AI cities.

Also plan to put OF hammers into Moai everywhere and then build it at the best site.

Bear in mind that this is a flat map = half-priced distance maintenance and we're organized, so we'll have 2whip courthouses and half-priced civics costs. Cash flows are not as difficult to maintain.

Tech Currency after HBR. Get Math in trade.

Click to expand...

Back and forth we go between HBR, Masonry, Currency and Math.

If we're not going to build the GLH ourselves, I don't think we should self-tech Masonry, at least not yet. With all of that stuff you want us to build, I don't see us putting a ton of fail gold into the GW in the short term anyway. I know that we need gold to pay for this stuff but I don't see building an army in a reasonable time and spending OF hammers into fail gold.

If we're going for HBR, I think we should beeline it so that we get the most use out of it as possible. Paris can use the OF hammers to build a RAX and to get going on setting up the war machine. Workers will improve cows, copper, horses and stone in that order.

At least that's how I see a HA "rush" working... teching Masonry before HBR and putting OF hammers into the GW is not my idea of a rush.

If we insist on teching Masonry, let's not tech it until we absolutely need it. If the GW goes before we have a chance for fail gold, we decide if one stone quarry is worth the beakers required to self-tech it.

LowtherCastle said:

Very . Just goes to show what I always used to argue with Jesusin. In fastest finish, it's all about turns. Turns are the unit of analysis.

Click to expand...

I don't trust my back-of-the-envelope calculations though. I'll create a quick test game just to optimize Fredburg.

Alexandria
1. Popped GSes on T12 (go figure) and T37. Next one: T74. Unless we can get it much sooner, right after that's the time to capture it.
2. Alexandria is coastal, right? It should be the closer of it and Thebes.

Prophets and Shrines
1. We don't know where the Christian Holy City is, but it's not in Athens because Alex popped his Prophet on T25.
2. Churchill should pop his Prophet on T51.

Another Question
How did Mehmed pop a GS for his academy on T41 with no Writing? Born with a library, that's how.