Units that civ 5 is lacking

Try to come up with that units Civilization 5 should have but dosen't have.

For example:

Dreadnought: We got ww1 units in G&K however no ww1 ships, it feels strange that you still have to use very obsolete frigates to bombard targets Before battleships.
It take I Think 3 eras Before you can uppgrade frigates to battleships thats way to long both gameplay and realisticly, Wooden warships was basicly gone from military Before end of the 19th centuary so a new ww1 artillery ship would be nice.

Dreadnought should be a ship with same range as the Battleship have and not to much weaker then the Battleship however the Battleship should have pretty good Anti Air, better then the Destroyer because later ww2 Battleships, Battleship in the game had acctually very good anti air however their cost should be increased instead.

Dreadnoughts Tech should be the destroyer Tech.

Denkt said:

Try to come up with that units Civilization 5 should have but dosen't have.

For example:

Dreadnought: We got ww1 units in G&K however no ww1 ships, it feels strange that you still have to use very obsolete frigates to bombard targets Before battleships.

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The battleship is a WWI ship; a dreadnought isn't much more than a short-lived class of battleship. It unlocks at Combustion, a tech which represents the early period of the internal combustion engine, and typically before Flight. What's stranger is that the battleship doesn't itself upgrade, so that you have a WWI unit as your highest-tier ranged missile ship for the rest of the game.

So, yes, there is a problem with the tech tree here, but it's the reverse of the one you suggest: battleships are exactly right for their tech and game position, but then there's nothing for them to upgrade into. While it's true that steamships came between wooden frigates and battleships, the ironclad that should bridge frigates and battleships is in game terms not a ranged unit, so in the game is along a different upgrade path. And in game terms the ironclad is better as a melee unit than a ranged one because the naval melee path is worse than the ranged one - it's not until Steam Power that you can upgrade Caravels.

Arquebus. Early version of the Musket.

One suggestion about the current Battleship; change name to Dreadnought and reduce stats and cost a little bit. Then add a slightly stronger battleship in combined arms - this would represent the WW2 battleship.

Rifling Cannon? From the scramble for Africa

Dragoon (in between knight and Cavalry)

Men-at-Arms/Milita (replace pikemen in civil service, move Pikemen to steel), a very cheap melee unit weaker than swordsmen but about on-par with spearmen without the bonus against cavalry units.

Brig or Clipper (can't decide) - a very fast sailing ship only unlocked by the 'Navigation School' policy in the exploration tree and the Navigation tech. Upgrades from Caravel and then to the Destroyer. Lighter than a Frigate it's best served as a scouting ship in large oceanic maps.
Moves: 6
Combat Rating: 20
Ranged Combat: 15
+2 sight & Withdraw before Melee

Double post pls remove

Ancient Classical Medieval Renisance Industrial Modern Atomic Information
Curage-->Tirme--->Carrack->Caravel--->Monitor->Destroyer->???????->Stealthship
privateer

non---->siegeship->Galleas->Frigate---->Ironclad->Dreadnought->Battleship->Missle-Cruiser

This is how the uppgrade path for the melee ships (top) and ranged ships (bottom) could look.

Part of the issue is that battleships reached their height of power and use during and after World War 1. Then, as defenses became stronger, they stopped being as much of a weapon. Naval warfare shifted to aircraft carriers, protecting aircraft carriers, and subs. You don't see warships bombarding cities any longer, because they would be cut down like confetti by bombers and subs.

Its more about gameplay, you can uppgrade most other units and keep their experince but not the battleship.
Also their is big gaps in navy uppgrade paths which should not exist in my opinion.

Great War Artillery between cannons and Artillery.

Bulldog Bats said:

Part of the issue is that battleships reached their height of power and use during and after World War 1. Then, as defenses became stronger, they stopped being as much of a weapon. Naval warfare shifted to aircraft carriers, protecting aircraft carriers, and subs. You don't see warships bombarding cities any longer, because they would be cut down like confetti by bombers and subs.

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True; in fact I was a little confused by references to 'WWII battleships'; the Bismarck and its sister ship were the last gasp of the battleship, and neither had a very decisive role, or was even used in more than a single engagement (the Bismarck was hunted mainly for propaganda reasons, but in practical terms it was reduced to being a convoy raider, a job U-Boats did better). Though I was wrong about the tech placement - it unlocks at Electronics, which is curious and does fit a WWII era better.

I'd still disagree with a 'Dreadnought' unit (save as perhaps an English UU replacing the battleship) since it's an artificial division that never existed in reality - a dreadnought was a battleship. Battleships should probably upgrade to carriers - it wouldn't be the only time an obsolete unit type promotes into a different one (chariot archers promote into knights).

Great War Artillery between cannons and Artillery.

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Between artillery and rocket artillery, surely? A unit between cannon and artillery would more appropriately be the howitzer (yes, it's used as a name for semi-modern artillery pieces as well, but the original howitzers were large-bore 17th Century mortars).

Also their is big gaps in navy uppgrade paths which should not exist in my opinion.

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Yes, Firaxis is obsessed by - and did a very good job in G&K with - fixing the land ranged path (though there's no need for bazookas in BNW, by that point in the game rocket artillery and bombers have made ranged land units obsolete), but they've curiously neglected both naval paths. It's not at all clear to me why the Caravel can't upgrade to the Privateer for game reasons - instead you get an odd, three-ship path that is itself overextended (Privateer > > > Destroyer > Missile Destroyer) in place of the more obvious Caravel > Privateer > Ironclad > Destroyer path. It's hardly as though pirates were roaming the seas in wooden boats while Ironclads were around. And the Carrier is a strange Scout-like anomaly that upgrades from nothing and into nothing.

A jet bomber between normal bombers and stealth bombers would be nice,
as would either remodeling the jet fighter or incorporating a stealth fighter.

PhilBowles said:

Between artillery and rocket artillery, surely? A unit between cannon and artillery would more appropriately be the howitzer (yes, it's used as a name for semi-modern artillery pieces as well, but the original howitzers were large-bore 17th Century mortars).

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If we want to accurately represent the gap between the muzzle-loading cannon era and the advent of breech loaders, I would recommend a field gun. There is no problem with 17th through mid-19th century siege weapons. The disparity is in the lack of late 19/early 20th. Calling them Great War Artillery is only a seamless integration the the Great War everything else that has been implemented.

If we wanted to create something to make the naval class upgrade more smoothly, we could use ironclads. Anything upgraded from battleships (the carrier idea isn't too bad, but already is in game, and carriers and battleships were used together). After battleships, there isn't anything, unless you want to create some fantasy naval craft (a la Giant Death Machines).

Redaxe said:

Brig or Clipper (can't decide) - a very fast sailing ship only unlocked by the 'Navigation School' policy in the exploration tree and the Navigation tech. Upgrades from Caravel and then to the Destroyer. Lighter than a Frigate it's best served as a scouting ship in large oceanic maps.
Moves: 6
Combat Rating: 20
Ranged Combat: 15
+2 sight & Withdraw before Melee

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such a light ship would just go Down in storms at sea, thats why u have to wait for the heavy guys

Needs the Cuirassier between Knight and Calvary.
Needs Dragoon or Line Infantry between Musketmen and Riflemen.

General ideas for unit lines, by each era.

Infantry - Warrior > Swordsman > Longswordsman > Musketman > Rifleman > Great War Infantry > Infantry > Mechanized Infantry (no change)

Ranged - Archer > Composite Bowman > Longbowman > Crossbowman > Gatling Gun > Machine Gun > Anti-Aircraft Gun > Mobile SAM (merging the AA line with this made more sense to me than them being standalone melee units, also the Machine Gun is the most obvious counter to Modern aircraft since...well, that's what was used at first, so it would have a weak AA capacity. Also the Longbowman was put in here as a regular unit since ideally England would get a building or improvement in its place, it'd have regular range though)

Anti-Mobile - Spearman > Phalanx > Pikeman > Pike & Shot > Grenadier > Anti-Tank Gun > Bazooka > Helicopter Gunship (Bazooka moved here, makes more sense. Pike & Shot is a renamed Tercio, Phalanx is a renamed Hoplite, Grenadier has a minor anti-tank bonus despite being in Industrial, gets full-fledged anti-tank upon upgrading to AT Gun. These should generally be late-era acquirements, typically after the mobile units they're meant to counter.

Mobile Melee - Horseman > Cataphract > Knight > Lancer > Cavalry > Landship > Tank > Modern Armor (Cataphract moved to be Classical while Horseman is ancient, Lancer ends up here, otherwise no changes)

Mobile Ranged - Chariot Archer > Horse Archer > Skirmisher > Cuirassier > Carabinier > Horse Artillery > Light Tank > Cruiser Tank (made into its own dedicated line, horse archer takes from Huns, Skirmisher is a genericized Sipahi, Cuirassier is a genericized Hakkapelitta, Carabinier is a genericized Comanche Riders, next four are all pretty standard units as horse artillery was indeed a real thing, Light tank is based on Renault FT)

Artillery - Catapult > Ballista > Trebuchet > Cannon > Howitzer > Artillery > Rocket Artillery > Railgun (fairly standard)

Special - Scout > None > Mounted Scout > Explorer > Ski Infantry > Marine > Paratrooper > X-COM (This is sort of a miscellaneous class geared more for recon and special operations, each serving unique functions - mounted scout is straightforward, but the explorer ditches the extra speed for the ability to find dig sites earlier on - and this will be the way you /have/ to find them, instead of them automatically being revealed at Archaeology. Ski Infantry made generic and leads into the more combat role - they're basically faster infantry, and then marines to paratroopers as we all know. For the most part it's a veritable decision to /not/ upgrade these at times, as each serves different functions. They obsolete much later than they upgrade.

Naval Melee - Trireme > Quinquireme > Caravel > Privateer > Ironclad > Dreadnought > Carrier > Missile Cruiser (adjusted so Missile Cruiser has aircraft and missile capacity and both it and the carrier have melee attacks, dreadnought is simple sort of ship, w/e)

Naval Ranged - None > Galley > Galleass > Frigate > Monitor > Cruiser > Destroyer > Battleship (simple enough)

Submarine - None > None > None > Early Submersible > Diver > Submarine > Assault Submarine > Nuclear Submarine (the Early Submersible is basically an oceanic Scout that has purpose mostly in its invisibility and is meant for recon with weak attack, the Diver is more attack focused though not as effective at anti-ship combat, and the assault sub is a simple middle upgrade)

Fighter - None > None > None > None > Recon Balloon > Triplane > Fighter > Jet Fighter (Recon Balloon is basically a super rudimentary fighter that does marginal damage to land units and is mostly meant for scouting enemy units)

Bomber - None > None > None > None > Airship > Great War Bomber > Bomber > Stealth Bomber (the Airship or zeppelin or what have you is similar to Recon in how it's a fairly weak early version, mostly ideal for plinking at ground targets)

And that's my list of military units!

I'd like a sniper unit line with bonus against infantry but are bad against mech inf. tanks & GDR, that goes something like this:
-, -, Longbowmen, Marksman, Sniper, Thermal Sniper, Laser Sniper

Ll1442 said:

such a light ship would just go Down in storms at sea, thats why u have to wait for the heavy guys

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Personally I just think we could use another ship in the age-of-sailing. There's only really 3 ships that cover the age-of-discovery to the age-of-sail; the Caravel, Privateer and the Frigate. This period covers many centuries of human history and deserves some more attention.
Sure, another ship or 2 isn't essential but it does add to immersion and interest.
The purpose of a Brig would not be to fight Frigates but use it's superior speed and scouting potential to more easily explore the map, patrol your trade routes & guard them from barbs, raid enemy trade routes and provide intelligence on your opponents fleet movements. The idea being that it can outrun whatever it can't out-gun and can out-gun what it can't outrun.

This ship could also be given a 'Move 1 tile after Ranged attack (if movement points remain)' to help fill it's niche of the quintessential hit-and-run vessel". It could also be another ship that is used by renaissance era barbs to harass trade routes.

My inspiration for a Brig unit came from watching Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl.
One of the lines in the film is
"Oh, the Dauntless is the power in these waters, true enough, but there's no ship as can match the Interceptor for speed." (Dauntless was a Ship-of-the-Line)

Redaxe said:

Personally I just think we could use another ship in the age-of-sailing. There's only really 3 ships that cover the age-of-discovery to the age-of-sail; the Caravel, Privateer and the Frigate. This period covers many centuries of human history and deserves some more attention.

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Agreed, but we don't need a new ship type, just a redistribution of the types we already have.
During the Age of Discovery, or Enlightenment Era, after the initial exploration by Caravels and 'Naus' (Carracks), the fighting was largely done by Galleons, Frigates, and Ships of the Line. Piracy, the 'legal' form of which was Privateering, was done mostly by smaller ships: brigs, brigantines, sloops, very rarely by anything as large as a three-masted Frigate.

So, the Frigate should be the 'Melee Naval' unit for the Late Renaissance period, promoted from Caravel, while the Ship of the Line is the Ranged Naval unit for the same period (although, to be precise, the full - fledged Ship of the Line was a little later development than the Frigate). I would be tempted to keep the SoL requiring 1 iron, but perhaps allow the Frigate to be built with no resource requirement since the weight of metal carried was generally less than half of the Ship of the Line.

For the Galleon, since it was primarily an armed transport/freighter, rather than stuff a whole new ship type into the mix, with the proper Technology, the Galleon increases the defensive strength at sea of all of your units, and allows your Cargo Ships to defend themselves - but not to be invulnerable: I would put the defensive strength at enough to make them a tough nut for Barbarian Galleys, but still vulnerable to Caravels.

The Privateer would be a Specialized Melee Naval unit. Its strength would be a little better than a Caravel (generally better guns), its speed about the same or slightly better than a Frigate, and its special ability that it can Plunder a Trade Route with a 50% chance of no Diplomatic Penalty. In addition, if the owner is at war with another Civ, it can plunder ANY Trade Route to that Civ from a third party without Diplomatic Penalty.

Privateers would Promote to Commerce Raiders in the Industrial Era: a freighter-looking ship with the same capabilities of 'freely' plundering Trade Routes and in addition, an opposing ship has only a 50% chance of identifying it and attacking. If attacked, however, it is very vulnerable to Destroyers and heavier warships

The English Special Unit should not be the Ship of the Line, which was built by every European/North American/Middle Eastern power that had water access. Some possibilities for other English Naval UUs:

Cog: A Medieval Promotion that allows any English Longbowman at sea to make a ranged attack, and increased defensive combat factors for any English ground unit at sea.

The '74': a Ship of the Line with slightly better factors and cheaper to build

Battle Cruiser: A faster Battleship, also cheaper to build, which can be 'Promoted' to an Aircraft Carrier BEFORE Aircraft Carriers are normally available. (To correct the Tech Tree and Unit availability, Aircraft Carriers should NOT be available with the same Tech that provides Battleships - the effective Aircraft Carrier didn't come along until a good 25 - 30 years after the Battleship, historically)

Literally anything in between the lancer and AT gun. I don't even care if it's realistic or not. That long wait for an upgrade is bad for gameplay, period. A truck mounted heavy caliber rifle, a zeppelin type unit, a machine gun mounted on a motorcycle, anything.