Navy in Civililzation 7

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

For each era. what shall be unit lists in each classes?
If there will be three
Basic premises
1. All pre industrial units can engage in combat as active combatant when embarked. only a handful of land unit classes can fight at full strenghts retained all abilitiies, bonuses and maluses, others (Any kind of cavalry especially, fights naval combat (boarding actions) at reduced strenghts (they have to fight on foot, all cavs kept thier horses at cargo hold when embarked), yet not being vulnerable to anyone with Anticavalry capability. in this situation 'cavalry' on board a ship is treated as 'infantry'.
2. Stackings. A fleet or armada are formed with different kind of ships. not really homogeneous. even a 'battle fleet' that has Battleships as main elements are composed of lighter warships like cruisers and destroyers in the same fleet.
3. Prize ships can only be obtained when ship to ship fighting involved boardings. and only possible BEFORE the invention of the first Ironclads.
4. Naval Unit Classes:
4.1. Naval Melee: (includes recon and Pirates, now Pirates and Privateers have 'natural' ability to earn more loots than usual but can't be trained (Privateers joined a navy with their own ships and crews, none of this are built by states. (it is better to streamline them using primariy combat modes actually).
4.2 Naval Ranged:
4.3 Naval Digitalized: All kind of guided missile ships... a solution to Guided Missiles Problem in game designs.
4.4 Submarines (All ranged, no inland attackings
4.4 Aircraft Carrier

5. What that's really baffled me is that naval evolutions between Classical -> Medieval -> Earlymodern eras. proper unit names, types of ships to take and what not to. and how to deal with transitions from Galleys to Sailers.
Actually what should be naval melee and naval ranged in the Middle Ages. Should ranged warships still be a kind of galleys like those in the Mediterranean (ones that's armed similiarly to what Classical ancestors did. or should the first Sailers (Cogs) shown up as ranged warships.? or did the Italian Great Galleys equipped with trebuchet a good naval ranged or has significant increases in combat efficiency compared to Classical Heavy Polyremes (anything larger than Quinqueremes, capable of fitting catapults of any kind and two archers tower) or still not that significant compared to Classical Heavy Polyremes? or did Cogs with fore and aftcastles clearly a better choice?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

5. What that's really baffled me is that naval evolutions between Classical -> Medieval -> Earlymodern eras. proper unit names, types of ships to take and what not to. and how to deal with transitions from Galleys to Sailers.
Actually what should be naval melee and naval ranged in the Middle Ages. Should ranged warships still be a kind of galleys like those in the Mediterranean (ones that's armed similiarly to what Classical ancestors did. or should the first Sailers (Cogs) shown up as ranged warships.? or did the Italian Great Galleys equipped with trebuchet a good naval ranged or has significant increases in combat efficiency compared to Classical Heavy Polyremes (anything larger than Quinqueremes, capable of fitting catapults of any kind and two archers tower) or still not that significant compared to Classical Heavy Polyremes? or did Cogs with fore and aftcastles clearly a better choice?

I don't feel like there was that much distinction between Classical and Medieval naval warfare that there should be any major upgrades until the Early Modern.
I guess if you want a melee and ranged unit in this era I would go for a Longship as melee and a Galleass as ranged. Whatever "Viking" civilization that gets in or any "Italian" or Venice civilization could have a unique variant of these units. Galley to generic Longship might make more sense because they both used oars instead of sails.
Alternatively, the first naval melee unit could be a Bireme and then Galley could be the Classical upgrade.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I don't feel like there was that much distinction between Classical and Medieval naval warfare that there should be any major upgrades until the Early Modern.
I guess if you want a melee and ranged unit in this era I would go for a Longship as melee and a Galleass as ranged. Whatever "Viking" civilization that gets in or any "Italian" or Venice civilization could have a unique variant of these units. Galley to generic Longship might make more sense because they both used oars instead of sails.
Alternatively, the first naval melee unit could be a Bireme and then Galley could be the Classical upgrade.

1. There were.. In mediterranean sense.
First Medit naval warfare involved alot of ramming attacks. but this was in Classical Era.
In ancient era, naval warfare were very primitives (or basics), neutralizing enemy ship means more to kill every opponent on board or at least force them out of the ship, and less of sinkings (or burning if flame weapons are used). The only known 'dedicate' ships were of Egyptian designs. (they use more archers in their warships than anyone else in 14th Century BC), though anybody else could actually invent the same war galleys with 'fore and alf castles, and a crow's nest at the middle). judging what is 'melee' or 'ranged' at that time is more of what kind of soldiers are assigned to any given warship and how many of them, or a proportions of melee combatmen and archers in one given ship. a ship of the same design can be EITHRE or BOTH.
Then by 7th Century (or 6th) BC. the first use of rams. the first definitive 'melee galley'. first begins with simple Moners (Common Triconters, and Maxxed out Penteconters, the latter is Greek only), and shortly later the first polyreme-Bireme- originally invented by Phoenicians, BUT this one is Early Classical Era advanced galley. This one solves the tactical speed and ramming velocity problems once a shipwright discovered that 50-Oarsmen moners had reached the limits of hull lenghts (even with Hawser ropes fastened prow, mast top and sten all together), solved by stacking more oarsmen at the staggering level instead of elongatign hulls.. here

^ Standard Triconter. This one is Spartan design

This one is either Greek or Phoenician design. the first of its kind.
With this, Moners are relegated to Scouting (and even Piracy) functions.

and shortly later on. Triremes. designed dedicately to break enemy warships by rammings. what it could do also is that turning enemy warships into wooden donuts.
But these are SECOND tier melee ships. or in the other words. successors to Monoreme Galleys of any kind.

To sum it up. Biremes are NOT 'Ancient Era' but Classical (Very early Classical) warships.
2. Dromon should be GENERIC name of Medieval Galley. the term was used by everyone in the Medit. in addition to Byzantine Empire, Islamic sea powers of the Medit did also use the SAME Dromon (and Chelande) both in constructions and names. Others to use the same term were Italian City States.
Early Dromons have beaky 'Classical Galley Hulls' but no actual bronze rams being fitted. the more common Dromon hull designs however, became more common 'fishbelly' shape with rams removed. also constructions became more simple 'ribs and keels' rather than 'mortises and tenon' with oak pegs
What made Byzantine dromons unique to others is that they used flamethrowers instead of simple boardings (By the 3rd Century AD, no one knows how to smack ram enemy ships in naval combat, especially with Roman naval equipment are centered around boarding actions (like 'dolphins' and 'crows') ). but still Flamethrowers are 'melee' weapons IMAO.

The term 'Dromon' also means 'Large Galleys' in other languages (English and French)

I'm actuallly so confused with Wiki entry of Dromon actually. when there were terms like 'Bireme', 'Dirers' and 'Triremes' an alternate name. I DON'T THINK it means the same thing as in Early Classical era (number of rowers per file). it means divided rower decks (a dromon can have as many as 120 oarsmen while classical bireme only 60 (double triaconters) -100 (double penteconters). Personally i'd think the oarsmen arrangement would be 2-1 per file. Two on the top deck, working on the same oar, and one at the lower deck).. I don't know if i'm really right or wrong on this. it might even be a type of Quadrireme or Quinqueremes being built and configured differently given several centuries apart.
But Dromon designs are indeed evolved by the Italians (who happened to be distant cousins to the Romans and might have even build their ships following Old Roman styles and evolved along the line with the Byzantines), whom later invented 'sweeps' oars (five oars pinned together and fanned out, worked by 5-8 oarsmen (I think) and built large galleys (the width of Classical Decireme) primarily as convertible freighters (one that big enough to mount trebuchets). mmm did this Italian Great Galleys of the Middle Ages being anything better than Classical Super Polyremes (Hexaremes -> Deciremes or monster polyremes like Ptolemic Tessakonteres, though the biggest polyremes ever use in combat were Deciremes) used by Diaochi Kingdoms, Phoenicians and Republic of Rome? if so by any margin or worthy of a new unit entirely?

Dromon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

^ Chelande. According to Naval Encyclopedia website. (do I have to trust this site?). this thing is, based on Classical Standard... Decireme, also being a flagship.
though these are developed around Dromon and not ones of the Antiquity.

Medieval Ships

Medieval ships, from the north (Scandinavian naval construction) to the Mediterranean, Northern and Southern Europe and the Byzantines, Arabs and Indians.

naval-encyclopedia.com

3. Galleass is EARLY MODERN Warship. NOT Medieval. (at least the terms, shapes and armaments). and Mediterranean (or Italian) exclusives. FOR Mediterranean warfare,
By the time Galleasses came to be. gunny galleons (which are sailers) had already dominated the seas in all waters.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1. There were.. In mediterranean sense.
First Medit naval warfare involved alot of ramming attacks. but this was in Classical Era.

As far as I can tell all these different ships, bireme, trireme, dromon etc. refer to specific types of "galleys". So at the end of the day I have no problem with using the generic name of galley for the melee unit from Ancient to Medieval and leave units such as bireme, trireme, dromon as unique units for civs (Phoenicia/Carthage and Byzantium). In fact, maybe naval ranged shouldn't even come until the Early Modern with gunpowder.

3. Galleass is EARLY MODERN Warship. NOT Medieval. (at least the terms, shapes and armaments). and Mediterranean (or Italian) exclusives. FOR Mediterranean warfare,
By the time Galleasses came to be. gunny galleons (which are sailers) had already dominated the seas in all waters.

That's interesting. I always thought it was first used in the (late) Medieval period because that's how it was in Civ 5.

 

[BuchiTaton]

Here is the table with my arrangment of naval units:

	LIGHT SHIP	HEAVY SHIP	SUMERSIBLE	CARRIER
2020-2100	Littoral Combat Ship	Electromagnetic Railgun Ship	Supercavitating Submarine	VTOL Carrier
1960-2020	Corvette	Crusier	Nuclear Submarine	Fleet Carrier
1900-1960	Destroyer	Battleship	Hunter Submarine	Escort Carrier
1700-1900	Brigantine	Frigate
1500-1700	Xebec	Galleon
500-1500	Galley	Carrack
500bef-500aft	Lembus	Quinquereme
4500-500	Triconter
8500-4500	Canoe

The name Galley for the medieval form is not really a problem since the term Galley itself is medieval, now used in retorspect for similar forms from Ancient and Classical time.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

As far as I can tell all these different ships, bireme, trireme, dromon etc. refer to specific types of "galleys". So at the end of the day I have no problem with using the generic name of galley for the melee unit from Ancient to Medieval and leave units such as bireme, trireme, dromon as unique units for civs (Phoenicia/Carthage and Byzantium). In fact, maybe naval ranged shouldn't even come until the Early Modern with gunpowder.

That's interesting. I always thought it was first used in the (late) Medieval period because that's how it was in Civ 5.

The Galleass was developed in the mid-16th century in Venice, so well into the Early Modern period and at least a century after the last vestige of the Medieval. It was, basically, a Galley with a gun deck mounted above the rowers, so it had a very respectable broadside cannon armament, but the extra weight made it very clumsy and less maneuverable than either a Galley or a narrow sailing hull like a Galleon (which was also developed at about the same time)

Naval Ranged versus Naval Melee is a false dichotomy before gunpowder: The larger polyremes of the Classical Era, like the Quinquereme and Decareme, did carry catapults, but they were bolt-firing rather than ship-smashing weapons, designed to clear the enemy decks so that they could be boarded and captured easier. That really makes them auxiliary to the classic Melee Naval action.

On the other hand, by the 13th century Cogs were being built with high 'castles' fore and aft on which crossbowmen, bowmen, and English longbowmen were placed to shoot up an enemy vessel. This sounds like the same Preliminary To Boarding of the Classical Era, but at the Battle of Sluys the English bowmen/longbowmen were so effective they slaughtered everybody on the enemy decks (the difference between 2 - 4 light catapults and 50 - 100 bowmen on each attacking ship, I suspect) so that the enemy ships could not even be crewed, and a great deal of the French fleet foundered on the coastal reefs as a result.

I think you are right in that the case can be made that Naval Warfare was either ship-attacking rams (primarily a Trireme weapon) or melee boarding actions, sometimes supported by heavier missile weapons like catapults or massed bowfire from specially-added platforms.

On the other hand, gunpowder weapons on ships came very, very early. The first depiction of a Pot-de-Fer, a small hand cannon, in Europe is from 1326 (in Florence), while the first known use of a similar small cannon from a ship was just 14 years later, in 1340 (note that both dates are in the period usually regarded as the very late or High Medieval era in Europe). And 78 years later, in 1418, the first of the Great Ships of the Early Modern Era, the Grace Dieu was launched in England, a 1600 ton Carrack with the Medieval Fighting Castles for bowmen but also with 3 cannon mounted by design from the beginning, so we can assume ship-board cannon of various (mostly small) sizes were common by then. This is on the very doorstep of the Early Modern Era, so Naval Ranged as a ship type could be strictly from that era onwards in game terms.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The Galleass was developed in the mid-16th century in Venice, so well into the Early Modern period and at least a century after the last vestige of the Medieval. It was, basically, a Galley with a gun deck mounted above the rowers, so it had a very respectable broadside cannon armament, but the extra weight made it very clumsy and less maneuverable than either a Galley or a narrow sailing hull like a Galleon (which was also developed at about the same time)

Naval Ranged versus Naval Melee is a false dichotomy before gunpowder: The larger polyremes of the Classical Era, like the Quinquereme and Decareme, did carry catapults, but they were bolt-firing rather than ship-smashing weapons, designed to clear the enemy decks so that they could be boarded and captured easier. That really makes them auxiliary to the classic Melee Naval action.

On the other hand, by the 13th century Cogs were being built with high 'castles' fore and aft on which crossbowmen, bowmen, and English longbowmen were placed to shoot up an enemy vessel. This sounds like the same Preliminary To Boarding of the Classical Era, but at the Battle of Sluys the English bowmen/longbowmen were so effective they slaughtered everybody on the enemy decks (the difference between 2 - 4 light catapults and 50 - 100 bowmen on each attacking ship, I suspect) so that the enemy ships could not even be crewed, and a great deal of the French fleet foundered on the coastal reefs as a result.

I think you are right in that the case can be made that Naval Warfare was either ship-attacking rams (primarily a Trireme weapon) or melee boarding actions, sometimes supported by heavier missile weapons like catapults or massed bowfire from specially-added platforms.

On the other hand, gunpowder weapons on ships came very, very early. The first depiction of a Pot-de-Fer, a small hand cannon, in Europe is from 1326 (in Florence), while the first known use of a similar small cannon from a ship was just 14 years later, in 1340 (note that both dates are in the period usually regarded as the very late or High Medieval era in Europe). And 78 years later, in 1418, the first of the Great Ships of the Early Modern Era, the Grace Dieu was launched in England, a 1600 ton Carrack with the Medieval Fighting Castles for bowmen but also with 3 cannon mounted by design from the beginning, so we can assume ship-board cannon of various (mostly small) sizes were common by then. This is on the very doorstep of the Early Modern Era, so Naval Ranged as a ship type could be strictly from that era onwards in game terms.

1. Should Galleas be UU or Coastal Only naval unit or not included at all?
2. In Civ scale. Are the differences in polyremes with different name truly matters to the point that it deserves a separate unit between 'Light' (Bireme), 'Medium' (Trireme - Quinquereme), and Heavy (Hexareme - Decireme, this one you mentioned on another thread as being better 'naval ranged' than Quadrireme)? if all of these are supposed to finish off enemy vessels in close combat (ramming or boarding)?
3. And are there any significant differences in combat characteristics of Classiccal Galleys and Medieval Galleys (like those Dromonts (French name is used here since these ships are used by everyone around Medit sea and later Italian Galeas of all kind) ?

Type and Cass \ Eras​	Classical​	Medieval​
Light	Lembos	Balinger
Medium	Trireme-Quinquereme	Dromont
Heavy	Heavy Polyreme (Hexareme - Decireme)	Chelande/ Great Galley

So if Heavy Polyreme is set to be in the next Civ game like this. do you think that Dromont and Chelande are the same units as those aforemented or deserve a status as different units in the two different eras and being in their respective lineage?)
Or did War Cog (Bigger than Freight Cog) a better medieval heavy ships than Chelande/Great Galley. (Did English War Cogs being as wide as Byzantine Chelande or Italian Great Galleys also?)

Two galleys (of the Medit sea powers) of two different eras are siginficantly differences in shapes. when Classical Era begins. all warships have beaky rams to the front even if these weren't being used as such later in the same eras. By the medieval. Beaky rams dissapeared, one protrounding spar (sometimes with sharp iron tips) shown up instead. What are the purposes of these spars in those Mediterranean Medieval Galleys actually? for Boarding or is it a 'Ram' of the Middle Ages? (I don't think this spar is a good at ramming because these are placed well above the waterline while classical rams are well below or at the waterline.

Here is the table with my arrangment of naval units:

	LIGHT SHIP	HEAVY SHIP	SUMERSIBLE	CARRIER
2020-2100	Littoral Combat Ship	Electromagnetic Railgun Ship	Supercavitating Submarine	VTOL Carrier
1960-2020	Corvette	Crusier	Nuclear Submarine	Fleet Carrier
1900-1960	Destroyer	Battleship	Hunter Submarine	Escort Carrier
1700-1900	Brigantine	Frigate
1500-1700	Xebec	Galleon
500-1500	Galley	Carrack
500bef-500aft	Lembus	Quinquereme
4500-500	Triconter
8500-4500	Canoe

The name Galley for the medieval form is not really a problem since the term Galley itself is medieval, now used in retorspect for similar forms from Ancient and Classical time.

Not really agree atuallly. Frigate is 'Light' ship while 'Ships of the Line' is a predecessor to BB. the two 'Enlightenment Era' warships are different even if they look very similiar. the different might be as thin as Quadrireme, Quinquereme, and Hexareme of the Classical Era

 

[civilizationfanatic2000]

for units, stats

armor material: cloth, silk, copper, tin, bronze, arsenic bronze, meteoric iron, iron, carbon steel, high quality carbon steel, ceramic, durasteel

armor type: clothing, scales, lamellar, mail, large plates, full plate, ceramic body suit, power armor

weapon material: ceramic, wooden, glass, stone, copper, tin, bronze, arsenic bronze, meteoric iron, iron, carbon steel, high quality carbon steel

weapon type: polearm (spear), polearm (pike), polearm (glaive), polearm (etc), sword (short one handed), sword (medium one handed), sword (medium one and a half handed), sword (large two handed), bow (long), bow (short), bow (cross), gun (pistol)

mount: none, horse, llama (mutant), deer (mutant), donkey, mule, elephant

vehicle: none, ship (small), ship (medium), ship (large), armored vehicle (light), armored vehicle (medium), armored vehicle (heavy), armored flying vehicle (light), armored flying vehicle (medium), armored flying vehicle (heavy)

these six set the defense and attack value as well as the technology and materials needed to make the unit. Mount options exist solely to make New World civs playable. every mount and vehicle has its own stats.

organization level

class

these two set the manpower cost and size and discipline of the unit and also affect what sort of weaponry you can give them. lower class peasants in a country without a marksmanship tradition won't have the ability to use bows. a country known for its metallurgy and nobles will probably be able to build scale armored cataphracts

ship stats

max speed

main propulsion method: rudders, sails, sails and rudders, jet, other

max crew

size

number and type of sails

weapons: none, ram, ballistae, catapults, cannons, early modern cannons, modern cannons, missiles, lasers, railguns (can have multiple at once)

ship material (wooden, metal)

the type of units available to a player depends on their ingame environment and choices based off of that environment. for instance, an island nation with a tradition of exploring other places (because the ruling class descends from conquerers of the native people)

 

[BuchiTaton]

Not really agree atuallly. Frigate is 'Light' ship while 'Ships of the Line' is a predecessor to BB. the two 'Enlightenment Era' warships are different even if they look very similiar. the different might be as thin as Quadrireme, Quinquereme, and Hexareme of the Classical Era

Well, agree that the Ships of the Line were clearly the heaviest and insignia war ships of their time, and must accept that I took some liberties for the naming and roles of units that not match 100% with a detailed classification.
Still I would not call Frigates "light" ships, especially considering the many smaller classes bellow them. If any Frigates were "medium" ships and the ones I have in mind are the "Super-Heavy" Frigates (that of course still were not of the size of Ships of the Line).
Another think is that the early Ironclad ships were classified as Armored Frigates, so these technically Frigates were the ones that made multi-decked Ships of the Line obsolete, then turning themselves into the Pre-Dreadnought practicaly taking their role as Battleships. Quite iron-ic .

By the way dont both Ships of the Line and Battleships come from "Ships of the Line of Battle"?
One less reduntant options is to name the saling ones as Three-Deckers. Is a shame that we can not use names like Acorazados (spanish) or Couraçados (portuguese) which emphasize the armor of the early 20th century period ships.

 

[pineappledan]

I agree that there’s not really any point in having pre-15th century ranged naval units in the game. any ship or armament you pick for such a unit would be parochial and at best a one-off oddity. There is not much of a tactical roll for a naval ranged unit until deep ocean travel is unlocked either in late medieval or early renaissance era (assuming 1UPT stays in some form). When you’re limited to moving along coast, there is no incentive to have a diversified navy, because you cannot shuffle units around to attack targets with more than 1-2 units at a time. Even if you give players the option, they will only build whatever is the strongest and ignore the other.

My experience is mostly with civ 5, where everyone ignored the medieval ranged boat (galleass), because it was inferior to the melee boat in its era. Naval combat didn’t “mature” into a fleshed out combat domain until renaissance, with privateers and frigates. From what I gather of civ 6 naval combat, no one builds boats in that game at all except to trigger some eurekas. The ability to found a city Center a few tiles inland and build a harbour district allowed you to make cities functionally immune to naval attack while keeping all the benefits of a coastal city. This nullified any meaningful contribution a strong navy could give players, so boats were mostly seen as wasted hammers.

The timeline and progression of ship construction in the North Atlantic/Baltic is what I would model the default units off of from the ancient to the renaissance eras. We have pretty good models and archaeological examples of ancient canoes and galleys, all the way up to the Viking longships and Knarrs, which formed the blueprint for later medieval and Renaissance ship designs. Their clinker-built ships and lash-lug techniques are also methods that have been found in other parts of the world, like the mtepe of Eastern Africa or the Balangay of the Philippines.

The franchise has mostly used the Mediterranean, classical antiquity as the basis for their default ships, and I think this is a mistake. The Mediterranean is just too calm of a sea; it’s not representative of what anyone else in any other part of the world was doing with boats. This is most cleanly illustrated by the -reme galleys; the Mediterranean adopted large oar-driven boats while most of the world was still relying on some variation of canoes, and continued to rely on bigger, more elaborate galleys long after the rest of the world had moved on to large sailboats. Mediterranean boats are great substrate for UUs, but they’re not defensible as default units to be used by everyone else.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I agree that there’s not really any point in having pre-15th century ranged naval units in the game. any ship or armament you pick for such a unit would be parochial and at best a one-off oddity. There is not much of a tactical roll for a naval ranged unit until deep ocean travel is unlocked either in late medieval or early renaissance era (assuming 1UPT stays in some form). When you’re limited to moving along coast, there is no incentive to have a diversified navy, because you cannot shuffle units around to attack targets with more than 1-2 units at a time. Even if you give players the option, they will only build whatever is the strongest and ignore the other.

My experience is mostly with civ 5, where everyone ignored the medieval ranged boat (galleass), because it was inferior to the melee boat in its era. Naval combat didn’t “mature” into a fleshed out combat domain until renaissance, with privateers and frigates. From what I gather of civ 6 naval combat, no one builds boats in that game at all except to trigger some eurekas. The ability to found a city Center a few tiles inland and build a harbour district allowed you to make cities functionally immune to naval attack while keeping all the benefits of a coastal city. This nullified any meaningful contribution a strong navy could give players, so boats were mostly seen as wasted hammers.

The timeline and progression of ship construction in the North Atlantic/Baltic is what I would model the default units off of from the ancient to the renaissance eras. We have pretty good models and archaeological examples of ancient canoes and galleys, all the way up to the Viking longships and Knarrs, which formed the blueprint for later medieval and Renaissance ship designs. Their clinker-built ships and lash-lug techniques are also methods that have been found in other parts of the world, like the mtepe of Eastern Africa or the Balangay of the Philippines.

The franchise has mostly used the Mediterranean, classical antiquity as the basis for their default ships, and I think this is a mistake. The Mediterranean is just too calm of a sea; it’s not representative of what anyone else in any other part of the world was doing with boats. This is most cleanly illustrated by the -reme galleys; the Mediterranean adopted large oar-driven boats while most of the world was still relying on some variation of canoes, and continued to rely on bigger, more elaborate galleys long after the rest of the world had moved on to large sailboats. Mediterranean boats are great substrate for UUs, but they’re not defensible as default units to be used by everyone else.

There are reasons why Medit ships are represented so heavily in the first two eras. Shipwecks dated back from that time were found there more than anywhere else. Also more records of serious naval battles using seriously big ships fought actually at sea. quite a contrary to the 'Most famous Naval Battles before Early Modern' in Asia. which were fought as riverine actions (Battle of the Red Cliff. in The Three Kingdoms era).

 

[dagriggstar]

I want to make Naval combat and movement more like how Air Combat works. Like if you have control of the water troops can teleport across in one turn (think airlift but like sealift). Try emphasize how fast ocean travel is, try emphasize a navys force projection etc. Combat ships are (for the most part) based out of harbours, although you can base them on any tile (with some kind of supply penalty).