Panda_Power
Warlord
It was 74.97MB
Wow! You have the slowest Internet connection on the planet!!...Congrats!!
Anyone know if Civ5 has been pirated yet?
- Thread starter Kruelgor
- Start date
It was 74.97MB
Wow! You have the slowest Internet connection on the planet!!...Congrats!!
Bibor:
My congratulations, you are the first person to post about the central point.
Indeed, Valve has no obligations towards the custommers, but to give a 30 days pre-advice that
will cut acess to any game/feature.
(I know nothing of computers, but...well there are other branches of knowledge).
I saw it, instead I bought it. Why?
It's just a game. And a little "buy".
The goal of said statement is intuitive, as you, computer/math people say: no obligations, so no
possible failure, so no possible dangerous trials ( CE laws can make trouble, but...).
Obviously, no seller wants to take full "profit" of said statement, as they will put themselves out
of business.
The only dangers I saw are some poorly programed computer of theirs or someone who wants to
damage them.
But, again, it's just a game.
My congratulations, you are the first person to post about the central point.
Indeed, Valve has no obligations towards the custommers, but to give a 30 days pre-advice that
will cut acess to any game/feature.
(I know nothing of computers, but...well there are other branches of knowledge).
I saw it, instead I bought it. Why?
It's just a game. And a little "buy".
The goal of said statement is intuitive, as you, computer/math people say: no obligations, so no
possible failure, so no possible dangerous trials ( CE laws can make trouble, but...).
Obviously, no seller wants to take full "profit" of said statement, as they will put themselves out
of business.
The only dangers I saw are some poorly programed computer of theirs or someone who wants to
damage them.
But, again, it's just a game.
Exactly... and yet, here we are - licensed to use a product we just bought. The whole equation of Make_then_Take still applies whichever way we want to look at it. There's little room for interpretation; some invisible gigantic conglomerate sucks the Lion share off the consuming pattern.
Where i get off the band wagon is when somebody in all these hidden economy principles grabs much MORE than what they really deserve.
While the people truly responsible for the Copyright products get peanuts. Work = Proportional Value? Relatively speaking, not in this case.
It's kinda - unfair. Almost pure theft in wise disguise that we commonly accept as normal or necessary. Taxes aside, of course.
Society (along with its stable economic rules) is certainly a conundrum.
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Except if Valve goes bankrupt for reasons unforseen (I really don't want it to), perhaps because of something that has nothing to do with their existing customers. In that case, some other company might buy off their customer base and continue the product availability (but will again be "not be obliged to"). And the risk stays with us, even if the money paid from our side is completely risk-free.
kossmikman
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2010
- Messages
- 80
Have you ever read the EULA of any (older) software? You don't own it, you just have the right to use it, Steam or not.
That's the case with pretty much all commercial software. "Owning" in the legal sense is owning the code. My company owns all our own products; our users license the right to use those products from us.
blind biker
King
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2009
- Messages
- 609
But you could still re-sell it, due to the first sale, regardless of EULA. Steam is a technology that now removes that possibility. It's not the EULA, it's the technology.
In the EU an EULA that would prohibit re-selling your software product is un-enforceable.
Which just shows how convoluted the whole IP discussion is. If someone buys a car.. they don't own the DESIGN of course.. simply the car itself.
Somehow along the line media companies have totally removed any ownership of a usable product and replaced it with a license for usage.
Its like going to the dealership and them telling you.. well you don't own the car you just have our permission to use it. No one expects to own the design.. simply the fair usage of a purchased product.
No sane person buys a car and expects to own the design..or buys a book and expects to own the copyrights to the story and no sane person buys a game and expects to own the code they simply expect to own a functional game. However with the way things are now they own neither. Its nothing new.. however new advances in implementation is what has changed. No longer can you buy a copy of a game for use and expect to fairly use it.. as they have begun to tie them to account based subscription systems. Like only allowing people to read a book if they have a library card. You can't buy the book.. its only available at the library.
So it's no suprise that your going to have people copying the book because they feel its unjust since they are being told they no longer have any fair usage rights over products they spend money on. They simply create their own copy to obtain fair usage. Is it right? No. But it is expected.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
The question is if it was legal to resell. A contract that had a no-resale clause should be enforceable even if you chose to ignore it.
I always hear this, but I'm curious why. Is it because they don't put all the terms on the box itself or make you sign a contract before purchasing or just something to do with the nature of purchasing something that gives you absolute control over the item no matter what?
AFAIK in the EU preconditions of a products usage must be made clear prior to purchase or they are invalid. Which is why you see products like pearC. Which is a PC with OSX being sold out of germany. Its against the EULA to install OSX on anything but an apple but since the preconditions(in this instance Apples EULA) aren't agreed to prior to purchase they are null and void.
This is consumer friendly and i wish we had something similar in the US. Its rather ludicrous IMHO that they can sell us a product that in general retailers will not refund with the usage conditions not readily apparent to the consumer until after purchase.
blind biker
King
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2009
- Messages
- 609
You always hear it? Voices talking to you?
Joking apart, the reason why you can re-sell any product, including a software product, is not because the EULA is unenforceable (which it may be, I don't know for sure), but because mandating that a product cannot be re-sold in the EU is illegal. Whether that is in an EULA, a piece of paper or parchment or on the wrapper of the box, is irrelevant. It's an illegal requirement (in the EU), and hence ignored. And so, tens of thousands of computer/console games and other software (including MS Office and Windows) are changing hands every year even in a small country such as Finland. I imagine that in Germany, the number is hundreds of thousands, and millions in the whole EU. And not even the big, bad MS dares to make a peep.
Maniacal
the green Napoleon
Its legal in the USA, some other software's EULA was held up in court after someone tried to sell his old discs on e-bay
You always hear it? Voices talking to you?
Joking apart, the reason why you can re-sell any product, including a software product, is not because the EULA is unenforceable (which it may be, I don't know for sure), but because mandating that a product cannot be re-sold in the EU is illegal. Whether that is in an EULA, a piece of paper or parchment or on the wrapper of the box, is irrelevant. It's an illegal requirement (in the EU), and hence ignored. And so, tens of thousands of computer/console games and other software (including MS Office and Windows) are changing hands every year even in a small country such as Finland. I imagine that in Germany, the number is hundreds of thousands, and millions in the whole EU. And not even the big, bad MS dares to make a peep.
Interesting, I didn't know it... (not that I'm going to sell Civ5
)
blind biker
King
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2009
- Messages
- 609
That's true: PearC has been at it for almost 2 years, now, and still selling systems. It seems that Apple has to watch and swallow.
A UK perspective and possibly out of date but still interesting to read
http://www.lawiki.org/lawwiki/Shrink-wrapped_licence_agreements:_the_UK_legal_position
http://www.lawiki.org/lawwiki/Shrink-wrapped_licence_agreements:_the_UK_legal_position
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
Salary (or money) represents a physical manifestation of someone's labor. I'm not renting out the actual product of my labor, I rent my labor. The product itself becomes owned by the person who is renting my labor. Otherwise he'd no right to re-sell it.
The same logic should be applied in the reverse transaction (my money for someone elses' labor). I should be able to own the actual product so that I have the right to consume it. This is rather obvious with things like milk or bread or shoes. I have no reason to believe that it should be any different for media.
When I buy a book, I own the physical manifestation of someone's labor (the paper, the letters printed) and I can consume it and then pass it along, as long as I don't claim that it was me who wrote or printed the book. So I'm not allowed to touch the actual content of the book. Which is fine.
But to say that I have no right to sell, give away or even burn the physical manifestation of someone's labor is preposterous. I paid for that paper, it's mine. I can burn it if I want to. It won't do damage to the author, except possibly if I do it in public.
A Zippo lighter can contain more "lines of code" built into it, for people who can read it, than Civilization V. The only reason why our minds can read Civilization V is because there's a translator called Windows. Yet nobody questions whether you can buy and own or just lease a Zippo.
The whole legal system concerning author and performer rights is a big hoax, and the issue stands unresloved for decades now. And will remain to be so as long as the big fat companies can leech money out of it. It's a flaw in the system, and they are abusing it.
The same logic should be applied in the reverse transaction (my money for someone elses' labor). I should be able to own the actual product so that I have the right to consume it. This is rather obvious with things like milk or bread or shoes. I have no reason to believe that it should be any different for media.
When I buy a book, I own the physical manifestation of someone's labor (the paper, the letters printed) and I can consume it and then pass it along, as long as I don't claim that it was me who wrote or printed the book. So I'm not allowed to touch the actual content of the book. Which is fine.
But to say that I have no right to sell, give away or even burn the physical manifestation of someone's labor is preposterous. I paid for that paper, it's mine. I can burn it if I want to. It won't do damage to the author, except possibly if I do it in public.
A Zippo lighter can contain more "lines of code" built into it, for people who can read it, than Civilization V. The only reason why our minds can read Civilization V is because there's a translator called Windows. Yet nobody questions whether you can buy and own or just lease a Zippo.
The whole legal system concerning author and performer rights is a big hoax, and the issue stands unresloved for decades now. And will remain to be so as long as the big fat companies can leech money out of it. It's a flaw in the system, and they are abusing it.
Alan McG
Cannelloni
It was 74.97MB
Wow! You have the slowest Internet connection on the planet!!...Congrats!!
The problem was hardly at my end. I have fiber, very rarely any download falls under 1MB/s. I am no steam user and have only ever used it for Civ, but for the few comments about it I have read this is certainly not an isolated case and happens to plenty of pple.
Guardian_PL
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 1,231
Amazingly good thread. I'm only hoping that mods won't get trigger-happy because of the piracy theme and won't lock it. I mean, so many controversial ideas... xP
P.S. Thanks Bibor for your posts, it's very refreshing to see that there are others around who are not buying all this marketing crap we're being fed nowadays
P.S. Thanks Bibor for your posts, it's very refreshing to see that there are others around who are not buying all this marketing crap we're being fed nowadays
Maniacal
the green Napoleon
You were probably downloading it when there was heavy traffic on the Steam servers. The only time I've had Steam itself be slow at downloading is when 10000s of other people are also downloading the same update.
Alan McG
Cannelloni
Yeah, I assumed that would be the reason. Still, an extremely horrendous speed! Anyway, I only mentioned it as a possible reason why some users may not want to download a patch. I myself made certain my computer blocks steam from the internet to prevent this situation again. When the new patch gets released, I will just connect at some point when I'm certain I wont be playing for the next hours..
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