strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
OK there was an option in the Abandon Buildings for Crime Mugging, but now its gone??
Crime & Punishment
- Thread starter Hydromancerx
- Start date
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
We should also be thinking of what civics would increase or decrease crime. Seems that ones like Society, Military and Immigration may be important groups that effect crime. For isntance Open Borders would increase crime while closed borders would reduce crime (reduces drug trafficking, terrorists from coming in, etc).
I need (LOTS probably) more time befiore v22 if we're goign to be making crime interact with more game features now. Need to add AI code for civic evaluation if we do this.
Also (repost from the other thread, but very relevant, since if it satys the way it is it's goign to be very hard to get right):
I am strongly against significant positive things flowing from HIGHER crime. It's very counter-intuitive, and unless you study every building in the civopedia it means you have no clue how much crime you actually want. It also means that the AI will need a MUCH MUCH (like several weeks to create MINIMUM) more complex and subtle means of evaluating crime, because it can't just regard higher levels as being worse than lower levels.
IMO the player-buildable buildings (that are used to create rogues, bandits, gold etc.) which we always had should NOT have crime value prereqs (via crime pseudo buildings), but should remain purely as electable builds that PRODUCE sigificant crime as their downside.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Now that makes alot more sense.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
If you are going to have law enforcement specialists you will need some in your cities also which brings us back to needing an extra column for specialists in the city screen. I had limited success getting the doctor specialist to work. I could get it in the second column but as soon as you tried to add some the icons dissapeared. 
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
For now until I find a better solution the Bandit's Hideout no longer requires Crime (Mugging). I have no decided if the others should be unlinked too since I think crime should give something too if you choose to go that path.
This means that Thieves and Rouges should be back to normal in early game. But beware that the Bandit's Hideout give a significant amount of crime in your city. Build at your own risk!
This means that Thieves and Rouges should be back to normal in early game. But beware that the Bandit's Hideout give a significant amount of crime in your city. Build at your own risk!
The golden rule for properties(if the AI is to deal with them anyway) is that more is always (for any given property) either better or worse. If they are 'mostly worse' but bring (possibly significant) benefits it can't cope, and I can't see a way to make it cope. It would be like gold is good, unless you have between 5000 and 6000 gold, in which case really bad events happen. It just makes the rules of optimization too hard for the AI, which essentially means the game gets easier for the human player.
WimpyTheWarrior
Warlord
The game I started on SVN 2106 is at about 8500BC right now, and I've upgraded to SVN 2123. I'll post save files in a day or so with answers to Hydro's 7 questions. I may use WB and see if the AIs rushed to build Bandit's Hideouts' now that they could. I also note from other threads where you're looking for save files and if I see a condition I'll post it. This is hard yakka you're doing and we appreciate it.
(include "slang" if you're searching on "yakka")
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Now that you did this for the Thieves and Rogues, what about the Assassin's, ie Assassins Den?
My biggest city only has a crime rate of 187 but the Assassins Den requires a +700, no way i can get there, before the Assassin is obsolete
??Plus along that line is the Mercenary Camp and (maybe Bull Leaping) dont know for sure didnt look it up), but it gives extra bonus to the Rogues and above, but it also has an OUTRAGEOUS amount +750
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Thansk for the feedback. That's one reason I wanted it at 5 crime so it could get up to higher numbers of crime.
How much anti-crime buildings do you have?
The other question is how do you expect to get assassins if you don't even have people murdering? At that crime level you don't even have pickpockets!
How much anti-crime buildings do you have?
The other question is how do you expect to get assassins if you don't even have people murdering? At that crime level you don't even have pickpockets!
Do you need a significant amount of murderers going around in your city if you want to train assassins?
On the other hand if you secretly train assassins, it is likely that some will go rogue. And that is modelled by the increase of crime that kind of building gives.
If you as the state leader dabble in a crime then that does not mean that that crime had to have been present before but you have to take extra effort to contain it afterwards.
So in short: I think none of the state built crime buildings should require a crime to be present. At least for the sake of the AI.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
I have built EVERY building in every city that i can, at this time, hows that for an answer.
WimpyTheWarrior
Warlord
The mathematics of Crime seem confusing to me. I have a Palace (-20/t), a Village Hall (+5/t), and a Bandit Hideout (+5/t) in my Capital, for a Net of -10/t. My crime is very negative since I have only had the Palace for most of the game Yet my crime goes from -54 to -49 to -45. When I hover over the Crime Rate in the Properties tab is says Constant Building Source -10/t as expected, but to the right of the -45 is (+4), the actual change each turn.
If my buildings net to -10, why is my crime increasing my +4 per turn?
If my buildings net to -10, why is my crime increasing my +4 per turn?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Is your pop growing? Do you have more city tiles being worked?
That's what I've noticed since starting a new game. But I have not updated the SVN recently either.
JosEPh
That's what I've noticed since starting a new game. But I have not updated the SVN recently either.
JosEPh
Population is also a source of crime.
Does the city have a trade route? Crime and negative crime diffuses along trade routes.
What is the crime value of the plot the city is on and the adjacent plots? Crime and negative crime diffuses to adjacent plots.
There is also a slight decay of both crime and negative crime.
WimpyTheWarrior
Warlord
Ahh, yes! population = 4 so that's +12 for a net of +2. (1 pop = 3 crime?)
No trade routes yet, pre Tribalism
City plot crime = -38 crime
6 land plots adjacent @ -24 each crime
14 land plots next ring, @ -8 each crime
The Story so far..
It's 5,500BC and I've seen no evidence of AI thieves. I built the Bandit Hideout, rushed 2 Thieves, then deleted the Hideout before the crime went positive. So now I have the thieves and avoided the penalty of the Hideout, albeit losing the hammers it took to build the hideout.
My thieves are just approaching the nearest neighbors to go a' pillaging, because I think there are no AI thieves. But for now I have to go to sleep, (almost 01:00!), so you'll have to tune in tomorrow for the exciting conclusion of "Thieves, Rogues, and Assassins!"
(Don't you just love the way I build the suspense!)
Connected to this is the Thuggee cult of India (http://www.mahavidya.ca/hindu-sects/the-thuggee-cult/) and the origin of assains, (http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101164 ). No crime required for them to be in game, but could be nice flavour for massive increase of getting some of the crime units in game by diffusion from those with them.
While i wait for V22 it seems counter intuitive to seek out to aquire high crime to gain units that actually should be working against you, not for you.
While i wait for V22 it seems counter intuitive to seek out to aquire high crime to gain units that actually should be working against you, not for you.
WimpyTheWarrior
Warlord
As Koshling pointed out in post #108, the AI can't figure this out. I have 14 AI Civs and it's 5400BC and none have built the Bandit's Hideout. I switched this game to SVN 2123 @ 8600BC, and all AIs had completed Scavenging by then, but everyone stayed away from that "bad building" for the next 3,000 years.
As a player I was able to build the Hideout, rush 2 Thieves, and delete the Hideout before my capital fell into positive crime. So my thieves are free completely free until Canine Domestication. The AI did not react and start building the Hideout even as I pillaged it's infrastructure. Nor has it gone to cover improvements I have not reached yet.
I love the crime buildings and Thieves/Rogues/Assasins (in doses), but right now it's a pure advantage to the player. I can't think of an elegent solution, sorry.
EDIT: Not far enough along to answer the other 7 questions; still pre-Tribalism. The Capital would not really have crime problems with the Palace for a while.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@WimpyTheWarrior
Selling the Bandit's Hideout seems like an exploit. Perhaps buildable crime buildings should not be sellable.
Selling the Bandit's Hideout seems like an exploit. Perhaps buildable crime buildings should not be sellable.
