New BETA Version - 4.4.2 (December 31, 2023)

[Roamy]

(...)
PS: Still seems like too OP Its worse then public works, but its insta and in every city.. Hmm, maybe by the time civs usualy have it its not that impactfull, but at the time
you can take it from Artistry policy or first musician from Celts it is kinda impactfull, but at the same time it is one time thing, so i quess its is kinda ok-ish..

I have the vague and possible irrational feeling that we might have gone a bit overboard on happiness in general lately... Just a feeling that was triggered by my most recent game in the information era, right before winning. I noticed that there is an even spread of ideologies, some significant World Congress sanctions and yet all civs are at 100% happiness and fully content with their ideology. I've been trying to see if I can counteract it and make someone thoroughly unhappy, but there's no way.

Is that just a poorly thought through gut feeling, or is it possible that we've had some happiness creep over the years?

 

[statusquo]

Is that just a poorly thought through gut feeling, or is it possible that we've had some happiness creep over the years?

I barely see any AI has less than 100%, piece me off, honestly, jelous
Last game i had very good happiness, got Autocracy with some other Civ.. There was like 8 Orders, and i had bad Tourism, and got like additional 130 dissidents,
wasnt sure how to counter this, was kinda dissapointed and iritated at the same time But learned i need to keep in mind investing into the Turism and dont neglect it too much..
I think i saw once or twice, that just demolished civ switch to the same Ideology like civilisation that just conquer them.
But back to the topic, 1 happiness per city may be a little too much, but at same time 2 happiness in capitol was not enought to justify losing Great work.
But then again, Indonesia has resource that gives you 6 happines as monopoly almost from the get go, so i guess in the grand scheme of things, +1/all
maybe its not that ultra op? Also, late game Music Theming Bonuses are very powerfull so you are resigning from that, also you have much more tools to mitigate unhappiness,
in terms of better buildings, more yields per specific improvement and Public Works.. I think that -10% all needs from Public works is far superiour thant 1 happiness, so
basically Public works really solves all happiness issues, and they are available at the end of Medieval era.
At the same time Celts or Artistry policy owners, can have first musician just slightly earlier, so im not sure this is that crazy.
Considering that unhappiness for city cant surpass the city size, +1/all means you can jsut grow cities 1pop more, before solving issues permamently with Public Works..
Considering normal amount of cities you usually have at that time, that could be comparable to 1-2 luxury resources, so i guess it is in the realm of imagination.
Note that every civ have this "tech" to their disposal, so the only sin would be not to use it
Im guessing the only thing that it really influence, is the "rapid expansion" phase, if there is still much territories to clime about mid medieval era..

 

[andersw]

I have the vague and possible irrational feeling that we might have gone a bit overboard on happiness in general lately... Just a feeling that was triggered by my most recent game in the information era, right before winning. I noticed that there is an even spread of ideologies, some significant World Congress sanctions and yet all civs are at 100% happiness and fully content with their ideology. I've been trying to see if I can counteract it and make someone thoroughly unhappy, but there's no way.

Is that just a poorly thought through gut feeling, or is it possible that we've had some happiness creep over the years?

I need to manage stuff a lot to keep happiness up but thats usually the case with wide and warmongering.
Recently happy to pay 40gpt (20 each) for two lux to avoid revolts.
It depends a bit what direction I go with policys.
Edit: but AIs dont flinch I wonder if they even can get unhappy (unless they are a starved vassal).

 

[Roamy]

I need to manage stuff a lot to keep happiness up but thats usually the case with wide and warmongering.
Recently happy to pay 40gpt (20 each) for two lux to avoid revolts.
It depends a bit what direction I go with policys.
Edit: but AIs dont flinch I wonder if they even can get unhappy (unless they are a starved vassal).

Yeah, I was specifically talking about AIs in this case, sorry. Their high happiness kinda invalidates the entire ideology pressure mechanic, or so it felt. Like I said, it was just one or two recent games where I was trying to see if I could effectively make an AI unhappy, and I just couldn't manage it.

 

[andersw]

Yeah, I was specifically talking about AIs in this case, sorry. Their high happiness kinda invalidates the entire ideology pressure mechanic, or so it felt. Like I said, it was just one or two recent games where I was trying to see if I could effectively make an AI unhappy, and I just couldn't manage it.

In versions way way back you could cause an AI to eventually go unhappy through wars but you probably have to play on a very low difficulty to see an unhappy AI, lack of expanding makes it even more certain that they are fine in that regard.

 

[SpankmyMetroid]

How are tall empires supposed to win culturally now without an empire size tourism bonus to bigger civs?

 

[Zanteogo]

In versions way way back you could cause an AI to eventually go unhappy through wars but you probably have to play on a very low difficulty to see an unhappy AI, lack of expanding makes it even more certain that they are fine in that regard.

Months ago the happiness bonus the AI received was removed due to them always being 100% happy making things like war weariness and ideological pressure pointless.
I haven't been around for the last few months so I don't know if it was added back in.

 

[SerbianYugoThief]

First of all, thanks for trying it out and for your feedback.
The mod is basically an early beta that still needs tons of work (and time that at the moment I haven't) in terms of content and balance, that's why it's still hidden in the dark alleys of the VP discord.

All in all, I realized that the way I would like to represent Prehistory is inevitably constrained by what the game allows me to add and bend to my will.
It's the whole "slinger compromise" all over again. It's not historical accurate but it's necessary for a better gameplay.
That's the main reason I posted the early build: to have feedback from players so we can go together towards a playing experience that is enjoyable.

Excited to see where this goes! I don't think every game of civ needs to be long and involved, but I enjoy the occasional epic game, and I've been hoping for a mod like this since I started fooling around with the Future era remaster.

What's the "slinger compromise", if I may ask?

 

[andersw]

In my case thing are quite different; early game especially as authority even without civs that have early UU or war related UA it's a breeze walk -even on Deity- until early renaissance... later on when whoever gets frigates and their melee counter parts on onehand and lancer & muskets on the other hand rolls way too hard for anyone else to be able to catch up.
In my latest Deity game as Songhai i got an average start next to Carthage who was the Tech & policy leader and the aggressive Aztecs.
I managed to get both as vassals in medieval and got my self an entire continent's worth of land, Vassals & city states then i hit a wall.
There were two other continents
one south with Egypt, England and Austria were everyone was chilling, warring every now and then but without any change in borders whatsoever, the last continent had Tradition Greece with 15 cities that almost wiped off spain in renassiance.
ffw 100ish turns they are in industrial era with iron clads with the rest of us barely catching up in frigates, got fusiliers while everyone else still using Tercios and no way any one would be able to cross the ocean with his Ironclads and the Spanish Navy at his disposal -got Spain as Vassals ofc.-.
i called it a loss and quit.

I tested a few more games and, the problems were maybe related to a few AI civs and inferior choices by me.
In most of the games (just playing to gunpowder of rifling) nearby neighbours just crumbles but as mentioned before there have been some anomalies.
Gold requires more specific choices, happiness can be rough.
Removal of xp from CS quests makes range 3 siege quite a bit more grindy.
Tech levels are consistent with previous games, crazy good start as maya going zooooom in tech and Im only 2-3 behind the AIs.
Will do some more tests and maybe also on normal speed (I usually play on epic), there have been speed related anomalies before.

 

[looorg]

I tested a few more games and, the problems were maybe related to a few AI civs and inferior choices by me.
In most of the games (just playing to gunpowder of rifling) nearby neighbours just crumbles but as mentioned before there have been some anomalies.
Gold requires more specific choices, happiness can be rough.
Removal of xp from CS quests makes range 3 siege quite a bit more grindy.
Tech levels are consistent with previous games, crazy good start as maya going zooooom in tech and Im only 2-3 behind the AIs.
Will do some more tests and maybe also on normal speed (I usually play on epic), there have been speed related anomalies before.

I kind of like the Juggernaut reward system compared to the "lets give every unit 15 xp" (that is still in there under Freedom - Self Determination). I like it as a sort of special reward, even tho it's just a level 6 unit with a special promotion (that gives two other promotions). It becomes the focal point of your army in some regard. If that unit also happens to be range or siege then you are set. It might be a bit weird but I tend to get a lot of siege units and boats, not that many melee units or horsy units.

If it wasn't for the Juggernaut then yes there are some more wars required. Just start some early defensive wars and sit around shooting ai units until you gain the levels.

I'm not sure why or what it is but yes it does seem that the tech levels start very consistent and it's somewhat easy to follow and then just boom a few of the AI take off and are all of a sudden many techs ahead, sometime during early Renaissance or late Medieval. Then you sort of catch up again in the late Renaissance or early Industrial. At least that is my experience.

Perhaps it's a game speed issue, as per usual slower speed multiples of pain and rewards for things. So it might not be a thing on standard speed for the AI to get some stuff but then for them to get x3 that stuff is a bit of a burst. Since I exclusively play Marathon games.

 

[andersw]

I kind of like the Juggernaut reward system compared to the "lets give every unit 15 xp" (that is still in there under Freedom - Self Determination). I like it as a sort of special reward, even tho it's just a level 6 unit with a special promotion (that gives two other promotions). It becomes the focal point of your army in some regard. If that unit also happens to be range or siege then you are set. It might be a bit weird but I tend to get a lot of siege units and boats, not that many melee units or horsy units.

If it wasn't for the Juggernaut then yes there are some more wars required. Just start some early defensive wars and sit around shooting ai units until you gain the levels.

I'm not sure why or what it is but yes it does seem that the tech levels start very consistent and it's somewhat easy to follow and then just boom a few of the AI take off and are all of a sudden many techs ahead, sometime during early Renaissance or late Medieval. Then you sort of catch up again in the late Renaissance or early Industrial. At least that is my experience.

Perhaps it's a game speed issue, as per usual slower speed multiples of pain and rewards for things. So it might not be a thing on standard speed for the AI to get some stuff but then for them to get x3 that stuff is a bit of a burst. Since I exclusively play Marathon games.

Jugger seems very rare, I've gotten one so far, it was a caravel when playing pangea
Would be great to have a choice or two regarding jugger.

 

[looorg]

Jugger seems very rare, I've gotten one so far, it was a caravel when playing pangea
Would be great to have a choice or two regarding jugger.

If I'm at war I find them fairly common, just as previous war quest they tend to chain after you complete one there is usually another one in a few turns. Or you try and complete quests with the militaristic city-states and they usually offer one as they refresh their quests. I guess the only weird thing about it is that the tooltip is currently a bit wonky as it doesn't say what the reward will be, I assume it is intended to -- instead you just see "1 Juggernaut UnitTXT_KEY_CS_QUEST_JUGGERNAUTS_XP". I guess it is supposed to say something more comprehensive then that. I have three in my current game (siege, siege, landskneckt) and I am making my way towards the fourth. But it's good if you get siege or range since you can instantly make it range3 so you know it will be good and useful. Getting a Trireme or something is a bit meh since you probably have to wait quite a while for it to become useful so you keep it around for eventual usefulness. Caravel on a Pangea ...auch ... It's like getting a ship reward for you city with a lake tile attached to it.

I find it a great relief compared to the lets give everything 15 xp (times speed or whatever) and you realize that you have hundreds of units and the level tooltip is now so long it doesn't even fit on screen and it takes 20 minutes just to level all the units ...

 

[statusquo]

Quick question about kinda in my opinion unreasonable denounciation
Im playing as Celts, and i was just denounced, but, it does not make sense for me.

So the only thing, he achieved in my opinion, is that he made relations with some of AIs worse, because
he has no friends, so his denounciation, would not be appriciated by anybody

So the way i see it, is that denounciation has influence on:
-his allys/friends, so that they maybe less like me or help him attack me
-my allys/friends, which should have negative influence betweek Korea and my friends

Just realized i never did a doctorate, in how denounciation actually work, i just alwasy treated it as "join me with my crusade against X".
Is this is kinda some sort of statement, about his long term plans agains me?
And would be taken into account by other AIs that would be possibly friens with him in the future?
Will this improves relations with all the AIs that already are at war with me or denounce me?

Hmm, could i use this for myselve, like for example, if somebody is too strong for me, can i just denounce, whomever hes denouncing, and therefore
possibly befriend him?

 

[andersw]

I see it basically as world blocks or "that guy is a jerk, dont you agree?", you dont have to do joint wars, its often very good to denounce the bad guy since the rest will like you more.
There are some diplo limits you cant have embassy with someone who is denounced and no embassy make other things impossible open borders and certain trades etc.
VP is more interesting than vanilla where it mostly was like a playground bully system where everyone hated on one civ, in VP its more common to see blocks with 2 or more civs on one side.
A civ who backstabs like you see here often get seriously bad rep among other civs, its a recepie for disaster.

 

[looorg]

Just realized i never did a doctorate, in how denounciation actually work, i just alwasy treated it as "join me with my crusade against X".
Is this is kinda some sort of statement, about his long term plans agains me?
And would be taken into account by other AIs that would be possibly friens with him in the future?
Will this improves relations with all the AIs that already are at war with me or denounce me?

Hmm, could i use this for myselve, like for example, if somebody is too strong for me, can i just denounce, whomever hes denouncing, and therefore
possibly befriend him?

Is this his long term plans vs you? Yes, No, sort of. Some of the things you do stick around and accumulate. They all hold eons/game long memory for all the things you done as far as I know. So the more accumulated things the worse it will eventually become unless you also do good things that they like. Share friends, religion, protect the same city-states, give them gifts, liberate them (this is a big one) and their citizens. Don't compete with them, this is hard since they all don't want to you to win, not be ahead of them in culture, tech, wonders etc. So that one becomes a bit hard.

Yes. Being friends with the same people, or protecting the same city-states, is usually a big one. But a fickle one as relationships can change for various reasons (war usually) and then your declared friendship with someone that they also had but is now their enemy for some reason make you a friend of their enemy. Which is bad.

If X denounces Y and you also denounce Y then X will think you are best friends, until things changes. Enemy of my Enemy is my friend and all that. There are a lot of pop up conversations where the various leaders just like to chat and tell you thinks like Denouncing Y was the best thing I have ever done and things like that. OR that I see that you also friends with XYZ, totally cool bro and we both agree that you are awesome.

So if say Askia has denounced Monty and you denounce Monty then Askia will think you are great, if you denounce Askia then Monty will think that you are great and that you should be pals. Perhaps they'll even ask you to declare war on the other one. Or if you could just replace denounce with declare war and the outcome will be about the same. But then as noted chain-reactions, all the friends of whomever you targeted will think you are jerk. Denunciations also last a very long time, it's usually easier to just declare war. Denunciations are best reserved imo for who you think will be your games nemesis and long term enemy that you will for some reason never be friends with such as a troublesome neighbor.

 

[statusquo]

Denunciations are best reserved imo for who you think will be your games nemesis

Yea, i noticed that, after short war, you cant later establish embassies and therefore open borders etc, etc, a bit annoying.
Also i noticed, AIs rly respect strength.. Sometimes after war, civ is immediatelly friendly with me, im guessing some unprovoked wars
could be just paid off, by some other civs, so no hard feelings, its just money

If X denounces Y and you also denounce Y then X will think you are best friends, until things changes

Was laughing from that hard Life
In the old times i kinda always neglected diplomacy, but as im trying to improve and go upper in diffiulty it seems more and more important, as one unintendend joint war against you can destroy you.
I didnt play ages Vanilla Civ5, is it as difficult as Vox Populi? Was diplomacy as much important, just i was stupid and didnt realise it?
I know Vox has reputation for being much harder, but honestly before Vox i dont remember i was ever analyse that much every civ relations, who like whom, who has friends..
Planing conquest directinons, allys, whom to beter not to piece off, etc etc
There is also this provoking dialog, that you can actually provoke war without triggeting defence pacts, and sometimes when some civ whining to me, im intentionally humbling them thinking "you have nothing man, come on baby"
I must say im kinda enyoing this

 

[andersw]

Yea, i noticed that, after short war, you cant later establish embassies and therefore open borders etc, etc, a bit annoying.
Also i noticed, AIs rly respect strength.. Sometimes after war, civ is immediatelly friendly with me, im guessing some unprovoked wars
could be just paid off, by some other civs, so no hard feelings, its just money


Was laughing from that hard Life
In the old times i kinda always neglected diplomacy, but as im trying to improve and go upper in diffiulty it seems more and more important, as one unintendend joint war against you can destroy you.
I didnt play ages Vanilla Civ5, is it as difficult as Vox Populi? Was diplomacy as much important, just i was stupid and didnt realise it?
I know Vox has reputation for being much harder, but honestly before Vox i dont remember i was ever analyse that much every civ relations, who like whom, who has friends..
Planing conquest directinons, allys, whom to beter not to piece off, etc etc
There is also this provoking dialog, that you can actually provoke war without triggeting defence pacts, and sometimes when some civ whining to me, im intentionally humbling them thinking "you have nothing man, come on baby"
I must say im kinda enyoing this

A major issue with vanilla diplo (that got fixed and changed in VP after a loong time) is that AI make all deals between themselves and then the human player is always last which meant diplo deals was always garbage for the human who always got the short straw.
It was super important because of a.research agreements and b. the way way way easiest win was 4 city tall traditon > rationalism peaceful going to space.

 

[HyprNova]

I've posted this in the mod thread as well - v. 4.4.2, and even the unofficial 4.4.3 seems to break Even More Resources mod. No ancient ruins at all, and a lot of resources seem to be missing even after revealed by IGE + relevant techs. Please help as the game is lacking a lot without EMR mod.

 

[andersw]

Here I got one of these anomalies.
Im japan in very good defensive place, on the other hand France have endless amount of units and he's just smashing them in my cul de sac and eventually will take the city.
He does have mt kilimanjaro which helps tremendously and alhambra (which makes his knights a pain in the ass) Im with god of protection and samurai.
Will have to peace out before he's at musketeers, no idea how Im to handle france who is also the tech and policy leader.
edit: still not as horrible as some other games because I could peace out and instead had the option to just steamroll his friend (morocco) in less than 10 turns.
But yes this will be a perpetual war with 15 turn peace treaties while we try and stamp out each others friends.
.

Spoiler :

 

[looorg]

Here I got one of these anomalies.
Im japan in very good defensive place, on the other hand France have endless amount of units and he's just smashing them in my cul de sac and eventually will take the city.
He does have mt kilimanjaro which helps tremendously and alhambra (which makes his knights a pain in the ass) Im with god of protection and samurai.
Will have to peace out before he's at musketeers, no idea how Im to handle france who is also the tech and policy leader.
edit: still not as horrible as some other games because I could peace out and instead had the option to just steamroll his friend (morocco) in less than 10 turns.
But yes this will be a perpetual war with 15 turn peace treaties while we try and stamp out each others friends.

The new French ability is a bit broken, they have basically an endless phantom army from all the barbarians and ai units they capture and they are free and dont cost supply.