Brave and too difficult world.

Hi,
Finding it difficult to play Brave New World compared to Gods & Kings, and want some guidance as I keep rage quitting at about the medieval period. Previously won comprehensively on King level and this was getting boring as I knew I'd won as soon as I took out my main rival. Now can't even get a good start on Warlord level!!!

AI beats me to one or sometimes two of my target wonders G Lighthouse, Colossus, and G library probably because I get behind on science. There's just too much to build all at once even after the essentials like worker/settler/trireme. Maybe I'm spoilt? It's not like I'm getting invaded, but not in any winning position either. This should not be happening at level 3 which I only usually use to take a look at the game.

Oh btw usually play England or Celts. England on large islands, Celts on British Isles. I know, should be easy right??

Thanks for any help provided.

so you get beaten on warlord..that shouldn t happen, but maybe you actually don't. I wonder what criteria you use to assess your situation at medieval age ?
The thing is , the AI is better at peace. He targets key techs that he needs according to his idea of a win (I think he is targeting two victory types at start and then choose actually afterwards which is sensible). Hence you will have ai focusing every branch of the tree. So some will reach iron working while you are still researching it. And the AI do not spend all of his hammer and gold on units as it used to only to lose them all on turn 60 when they declare on you. Now they get more of a 'I prepare for late game' flavour. Unless they are warmongers with a good advantage early'(attila,rome if he get a high aggessive score,ashurthing, shaka...)
What is your typical tech/build order , because I think it is a bit difficult to get those three wonders...not mentionning that you probably need close to 70 turn to get those three wonders up and running with at least one worker beside unless you got a lot of forest to chomp , and even there it s gonna be for the last one since great library is pretty much rushed ,and so are GLigthouse and colossus ,plus mining is on the bottom of the tree.

My guess is , on warlords , if you go straight to optics , it shouldn t be too hard to get the first two with an autistic start like monument/worker and get your warrior to stop scouting (really autistic) as soon as your worker is there + steal one from a CS , then go library , reach optics , go to the bottom of the tree , get bronze working , and then use GLibrary for iron working.

But you see , starting with three wonders is not that optimal compared to settling one or two more cities , get a few more archers and some workers /granaries /libraries

Great Library is a very appealing wonder. Since I moved up I have never built it.

jezer said:

AI beats me to one or sometimes two of my target wonders G Lighthouse, Colossus, and G library

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The only one of these that you should ever consider building is the Colossus, and forget it if you are on a water map or there are civs with Iron Working UU's. The Colossus isn't even really that good if you're not Venice. You should probably just forego building wonders in the early game at all until you get better at your foundation, though as a fellow builder I will say that there a few early wonders that are worth getting and are at least somewhat possible to get: in order of ease, Pyramids, The Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Temple of Artemis, and Stonehenge. I'd recommend only building one of these AT MOST, and even then only if it fits your specific strategy and you have enough production in your capital to do it fast.

The Pyramids seem to have become a freebie in BNW, even on Immortal I see it not being built until like turn 140. I guess the Liberty requirement stops the usual suspects for wonderhogging in their tracks. Oracle is easy now too, it used to be almost as bad as Great Library (which is still impossible).

My guess is you were too spoilt by easy wonders. I was a wonder hoarder myself, but as I moved up the difficulty levels, I realised that it was not a viable strategy on higher difficulty levels and changed my playstyle. I also got used to not being on the top of the scoreboard from the very beginning, and only slowly catching up by the Modern Era.

I think you need to change your mindset and stop expecting to be dominating by the Medieval Era, and rage quitting if you don't. With BNW especially, the early stages of the game are less decisive and you have a lot of room to catch up in the later ages. The fun of the game comes from trying to claw your way out of the your middling position on the totem pole and eventually overtaking the frontrunners.

Alzadar said:

The Pyramids seem to have become a freebie in BNW, even on Immortal I see it not being built until like turn 140. I guess the Liberty requirement stops the usual suspects for wonderhogging in their tracks. Oracle is easy now too, it used to be almost as bad as Great Library (which is still impossible).

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Agree on both of those, but sadly, Chichen Itza has only gotten more impossible (at least on Immortal). I regularly see it go 10 turns before I UNLOCK Civil Service, despite the fact that I tech quickly and usually beeline it.

My biggest gripe with BNW is they don't seem to have factored in the extra amount of time needed to explore all the possible Policies. There seems far too much emphasis on Religion and Trade. Trade especially. If you don't set up trade routes, you lose! Trade is good, don't get me wrong - but while you're concentrating on building Caravans and Cargo Ships you're falling behind on building major infrastructure and Science.
Only Discovering Flight in 1966?! Running around with Medieval units in the 20th Century? Getting access to Stealth 3 turns before 'Time out?'
Seems like an unbalance to me.
The only Victory you can hope to achieve is Cultural!
Not good for a 'blast em to smithereens' player like me!
Zorro 695

Zorro 695 said:

My biggest gripe with BNW is they don't seem to have factored in the extra amount of time needed to explore all the possible Policies. There seems far too much emphasis on Religion and Trade. Trade especially. If you don't set up trade routes, you lose! Trade is good, don't get me wrong - but while you're concentrating on building Caravans and Cargo Ships you're falling behind on building major infrastructure and Science.
Only Discovering Flight in 1966?! Running around with Medieval units in the 20th Century? Getting access to Stealth 3 turns before 'Time out?'
Seems like an unbalance to me.
The only Victory you can hope to achieve is Cultural!
Not good for a 'blast em to smithereens' player like me!
Zorro 695

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That certainly is not my experience - there is plenty of time to research everything before time out. What difficulty are you playing on?

Zorro 695 said:

My biggest gripe with BNW is they don't seem to have factored in the extra amount of time needed to explore all the possible Policies. There seems far too much emphasis on Religion and Trade. Trade especially. If you don't set up trade routes, you lose! Trade is good, don't get me wrong - but while you're concentrating on building Caravans and Cargo Ships you're falling behind on building major infrastructure and Science.
Only Discovering Flight in 1966?! Running around with Medieval units in the 20th Century? Getting access to Stealth 3 turns before 'Time out?'
Seems like an unbalance to me.
The only Victory you can hope to achieve is Cultural!
Not good for a 'blast em to smithereens' player like me!
Zorro 695

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Uhh... build more science buildings? ->

Your only ragequit issue appears to be that you can't beat the AI to every single wonder. The AI got a little smarter about setting itself up for the long game. What's the problem with that? Adjust your strategy or, if you'd rather not, just move down a level. It's silly to complain that the game is "too difficult" when you're not on the easiest difficulty setting. If you're playing on Chieftain and still can't win, this just isn't the game for you.

If you'd like to remain on the same difficulty, taking some of the tips here might do you good. As a learning experience, I would suggest playing through an entire game in which you ban yourself from building wonders completely. Wonderspamming can be a nasty habit, so just go cold turkey.

If building wonders is like the only part of the game you like, target which specific wonders you'll beeline for, and make sure they're not on opposite ends of the tech tree like Great Library and Colossus. If you ever plan on moving up in difficulty, reconcile yourself to the fact that you're never building the Great Library again. Make sure that building the wonder is actually worth the opportunity cost of NOT building early workers, explorers, or regular science, culture, food, or faith buildings. In many cases it isn't.

Some basic tips which have helpd my BNW game as compared to GNK's:

1. build at least one scout right away, if you're on pangea build two. You need the gold from ruins and city states more than ever, in order to survive without a trade route for awhile

2. don't try to get a trade route right away. It's tempting, but if it gets pillaged, the loss is painful and it can be difficult to recover.

3. don't try for wonders until later eras, just making this a rule will force you to play a bit better

4. build less units (than in GNK), you are less likely to be attacked early, units are mostly for barbarian control, but they are expensive

5. get science. beeline to national college and build it. do it.

6. dont rage quit!! this is probalby THE most important tip. The primary change in BNW, and what I think makes it a truly great expansion is the ability to actually make a comeback in mid and late game, in previous versions of Civ I could tell if I was going to win or lose 99% of the time by midieval era, that is no longer the case. Believe that you *can* comeback and then watch it happen, makes the game far more enjoyable.

Would be curious to see a screenshot from the OP on why he's rage quiting. I have found BNW far easier than GNK. I'm having quite the opposite happen. I used to just hang around the front few in demographics in GNK on King, in BNW I completely mop the floor. Once the science train gets rolling it just balloons to laughable proportions. I thought the few 2 games having a 20+ tech lead was just good games but when it continued to happen I knew it was time to start moving up the skill level.

Thanks everyone, much appreciated advice. I am now well into it and enjoying the game a lot more.

Karmah; your first point is interesting and would seem to fit the pattern of past experience.

The consensus that I try for too many wonders and have little patience is spot on. I realise when I go back to King, I need to be more judicious.

I'm like Zorro 695, I prefer to blast out rivals which lets me choose my victory once this is accomplished. I like BNW so far as I have to think carefully when to build squeeze in a safe invasion fleet in amongst what I simply must do.

Policy choices are also more difficult. I used to ALWAYS go honour, leave it and go tradition, back to honour, mix of commerce and rationalism and finally order. Now They've split commerce's benefits with exploration, I'm confused. Oh well, I'll find out the optimal choices in time.

I've definitely felt the lack of happiness. I remember my first wide game with BNW. Was stunned when I realized theaters were removed, stadiums only provide +2 happiness, and ceremonial burial and peace loving got nerfed. Going wide has gotten more difficult.

On the flip-side, it empowered some previously weak civs like Byzantium or The Celts with their +3 happiness building.

Carmack said:

I've definitely felt the lack of happiness. I remember my first wide game with BNW. Was stunned when I realized theaters were removed, stadiums only provide +2 happiness, and ceremonial burial and peace loving got nerfed. Going wide has gotten more difficult.

On the flip-side, it empowered some previously weak civs like Byzantium or The Celts with their +3 happiness building.

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Theaters weren't removed, they're just called zoos now. The Ceremonial Burial nerf is pretty huge though, will admit that.