An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')

I am loving this so far! I worked my way up from Emperor to Deity using peaceful turtle SV as my benchmark for when it was time to advance. I still don't have that for Deity, even with Korea or Poland. Then I tried Babs and killed my neighbor early because of the UU. What a huge difference! I still don't have a Dom Deity win under my belt, even though I have started my last several games with that in mind. The fallback SV and Diplo wins have still been lots of fun and very satisfactory. I think the deference being given to warmongering in this thread is right on the mark.

Could someone be so kind and explain me what the whole list is really for? (even if the list is 100% correct what clearly is not the case)

For new player to know which civs choose to have easier game? Well than you need to realise that land is most important factor not civ ( I always take Byzantium on wheat,salt mountain- heavenly start over Poland on small continents tundra).

I mean I remember times when people post actually strategies about game, and then discuss, but I realise that game is 4,5 years old and half-dead but still it's sad...

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How do you consider maps ?

What do you mean? I'm sorry I don't understand your question.

How are you considering civ having advantages/disadvantages depending on the map ? How is that taken into account ?

The list is valid for Pangaea, Continents and Fractal, since they all have large pieces of land surrounded by water. All other map types were specifically excluded, not to make the job easier, but because they are seldom played at the Deity level.

Another thing to note: the civs are never compared to each other directly, since that is impossible, really. Instead, the advantages each civ has over a completely vanilla civ are noted. Therefore, whether the map is Pangaea, Continents or Fractal, Suleiman's Prize ships UA maintains the same level of advantage over the Neutrals. And if there is ice on the map (as there was on the DCL #23), then the PITA is the same for Suleiman as much as a neutral civ that might want to attack the Danes via that passage.

Does that answer your question?

yeah.

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To stay on topic, I will say that "gold-mongering" nations are a bit underrated in this list. Sure, Portugal and Venice aren't that good at being military powerhouses as most other civs, but buying key buildings throughout the game is quite helpful, and makes building Wonders easier. I tend to find that extra gold helps every victory condition, not just Diplomacy.

I'm only speaking from Emperor-levels of experience, and Deity might hamper things quite a bit, but that's not the impression I'm getting from the civ-specific write-ups. They do make it seem like "funding an army" is the only use money has. For example, Germany's ability to save 20 GPT at endgame (only if you have a sizable army) gets 3/5, while Portugal's ability to save more than that from the midgame onwards (with trade routes, something even Neutrals need to have) gets a "generous" 1/5.

Furthermore, Brazil is pretty much one of the Neutrals until it produces its first Great Work. The jungle start makes building wonders difficult (quite important for CV), and the Brazilwood only comes into play at the Renaissance. All of this means that, when considering their Jungle bias, their early game is usually worse than a Neutral's (considering that a Neutral does not often start on jungles). I'm just saying, their rough early game should be acknowledged somehow, like you did with Sweden.

JonnasN said:

I tend to find that extra gold helps every victory condition, not just Diplomacy.

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I think it helps Freedom SV, but you'll not do well at that VC if you're Venice or Portugal, compared with the Neutrals. Not sure if makes CV any easier, and judging from what you say below, if you've not tried for a CV on Deity, pardon me for saying so but I don't think you'll understand how tricky it is compared with Emperor. The other day I saw in the DCL that someone had to overcome 105k of AI culture. That's crazy!

I'm only speaking from Emperor-levels of experience, and Deity might hamper things quite a bit, but that's not the impression I'm getting from the civ-specific write-ups. They do make it seem like "funding an army" is the only use money has. For example, Germany's ability to save 20 GPT at endgame (only if you have a sizable army) gets 3/5, while Portugal's ability to save more than that from the midgame onwards (with trade routes, something even Neutrals need to have) gets a "generous" 1/5.

Furthermore, Brazil is pretty much one of the Neutrals until it produces its first Great Work. The jungle start makes building wonders difficult (quite important for CV), and the Brazilwood only comes into play at the Renaissance. All of this means that, when considering their Jungle bias, their early game is usually worse than a Neutral's (considering that a Neutral does not often start on jungles). I'm just saying, their rough early game should be acknowledged somehow, like you did with Sweden.

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Funding an army is not the only use that gold has, of course. Buying buildings though, I think will always be less powerful than buying CS gifts and units. If you go peaceful, you may as well build the buildings because often, your tech rate is such that you don't have much to build anyway. Trying to build Wonders primarily and buy the other buildings (which is what I think you're talking about) is folly, in my view. You'll end up being pipped to the post on 90% of them and end up wasting a ton of hammers.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but most peaceful Deity players usually only buy science buildings, and they are planned and saved for quite easily even with the Neutrals.

My dim view of Portugal's UA is based on the fact that most peaceful players send food to their capital to grow it for science, on Deity. And even if all the trade routes are going to the AI for whatever reason, it's not enough of an advantage.

Also, the difference in Wonders is huge between Emperor and Deity. On Emperor you can get pretty much anything you want. On Deity you're happy with what you can get. If you have a great early start then you can sometimes get Sistine Chapel or Globe Theater, but not usually both. Spies are important at this time to find out if an AI is building them. You can tell which ones are likely to.

I did consider a negative for Brazil's jungle bias, but it would be cancelled out by Brazilwood anyway, I think. Plus, Carnival is just plain nuts on Deity. One minute you're struggling to overcome the culture leader. The next minute he's going shopping for Levis and Lady Gaga (or the Brazilian equivalent). It happens so fast.

Do you have any further thoughts on exactly how gold purchasing makes winning easier?

consentient said:

Funding an army is not the only use that gold has, of course. Buying buildings though, I think will always be less powerful than buying CS gifts and units. If you go peaceful, you may as well build the buildings because often, your tech rate is such that you don't have much to build anyway. Trying to build Wonders primarily and buy the other buildings (which is what I think you're talking about) is folly, in my view. You'll end up being pipped to the post on 90% of them and end up wasting a ton of hammers.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but most peaceful Deity players usually only buy science buildings, and they are planned and saved for quite easily even with the Neutrals.

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I don't mean build Wonders all the time (you usually just need some choice ones, anyway) but it does help guarantee the ones you want. It also helps, getting certain buildings as soon as they're available: science buildings are good for this, but buying Windmills is something I also like to do (they usually take a good while to build in most cities), while using hammers on the ones that take a smaller amount of turns (money, culture and happiness buildings usually get hardbuilt like this).

I've heard of Deity players buying Factories to get an ideology immediately, which means you don't absolutely need to rush Radio right away (though this is hard, factories are expensive).

And like you said, buying units becomes a more feasible option. The main advantage of buying things instead of building is speed, and this is even more valuable with the army.

(Also, to clarify, I'm not saying you should do these things instead of tending to CSes, just that these are additional options. No need to neglect CSes.)

All of that considered, you're right in that I haven't tried these things on Deity yet. I do have a good idea of how the game progresses though, and buying hammer-buildings immediately would help a lot. I definitely don't think "more gold" is a small advantage, as the abundance of Gold helped me immensely in the Aztec DCL.

consentient said:

I think it helps Freedom SV, but you'll not do well at that VC if you're Venice or Portugal, compared with the Neutrals. Not sure if makes CV any easier, and judging from what you say below, if you've not tried for a CV on Deity, pardon me for saying so but I don't think you'll understand how tricky it is compared with Emperor. The other day I saw in the DCL that someone had to overcome 105k of AI culture. That's crazy!

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No, gold-mongering civs aren't significantly better in the "Space Procurements" goal, I agree (really, any Civ can get the necessary funds in a jiffy at that point, as long as they're not hated by the rest of the world). They can get the hammer & science buildings up and running faster, though, and that helps for any victory type.

Also, funny you should mention the CV, as I got a Cultural Victory with both Portugal and Venice on Emperor pretty much unintentionally: I was aiming for a Science Victory, but I noticed my tourism output was big enough to aim for a CV instead. Once I have a bit more experience on Deity, I definitely want to try to repeat those victories in that difficulty.

consentient said:

My dim view of Portugal's UA is based on the fact that most peaceful players send food to their capital to grow it for science, on Deity. And even if all the trade routes are going to the AI for whatever reason, it's not enough of an advantage.

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I understand if you feel it's not a big advantage on Deity (I certainly don't have hands-on experience with it on Deity), I was just comparing it to the rating you gave to German UA, which also saves gold, but under much more specific circumstances.

(Also, even if Deity players use more internal Trade Routes, external ones are still not going to be neglected entirely, especially if Cultural is the chosen victory type.)

consentient said:

The next minute he's going shopping for Levis and Lady Gaga (or the Brazilian equivalent). It happens so fast.

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Carmen Miranda might be a much classier Brazillian equivalent And the culture leader will not be buying Levis, s/he needs to be home at 18:00 to watch the Telenovela!

(I do find it brilliant that Brazil can be a cultural leader in Civ 5, as they have a much bigger influence in the rest of the Portuguese-speaking world than the other way around. And other Latin-American countries have started teaching Portuguese in schools, but I haven't heard of Spanish being taught in Brazil yet)

JonnasN said:

I understand if you feel it's not a big advantage on Deity (I certainly don't have hands-on experience with it on Deity), I was just comparing it to the rating you gave to German UA, which also saves gold, but under much more specific circumstances.

(Also, even if Deity players use more internal Trade Routes, external ones are still not going to be neglected entirely, especially if Cultural is the chosen victory type.)

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Speaking as someone who mostly plays Deity Science and Diplo right now, I basically never use external trade routes. Mmmmaybe I'll send one to the AI very early, if I don't have Granaries for food routes and/or don't have the happiness to grow. And you can switch over to gold in the super-late game, once further growth is pointless, but it doesn't matter too much -- that's just a way to shave a turn or two off of a victory that's going to come soon either way. Aside from that, though, it's all internal all the time.

Which means that Portugal's UA is actually incredibly situational, since it requires you to do something you otherwise wouldn't do. By comparison, the German UA only asks you to have units. Even if you don't have a large army, you'll still have at least SOMETHING. I guess Portugal does get a bit extra from routes the AI sends you, so it's not completely useless, but it's pretty close in my opinion.

(And I don't think this is limited to Deity -- internal trade routes are better on all difficulty levels.)

JonnasN said:

I've heard of Deity players buying Factories to get an ideology immediately, which means you don't absolutely need to rush Radio right away (though this is hard, factories are expensive).

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I mostly play Domination and I always rush buy 3 factories the turn I finish Industrialisation, with gold I've saved specifically. The Honor finisher can pay for it in short order. Mercantilism brings the price of factories down a lot. I want to avoid getting to the Modern Era at all costs, really.

Also, funny you should mention the CV, as I got a Cultural Victory with both Portugal and Venice on Emperor pretty much unintentionally: I was aiming for a Science Victory, but I noticed my tourism output was big enough to aim for a CV instead. Once I have a bit more experience on Deity, I definitely want to try to repeat those victories in that difficulty.

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Well done on these victories. When you repeat them on Deity, I recommend trying the exact same map you played as Portugal but playing as India. I truly think you'll find that the Portugal UA is very underwhelming and India (though crap) would be better for a CV.

Ok Consentient, here be some constructive criticism. I'm trying to focus on specific points of analysis, not on civ rankings.

--I think your analysis undervalues and/or ignores the border-expansion benefits of UBs with +culture. Both the Wat and the Mud Pyramid Mosque make a significant difference for border expansion, especially if you aren't playing Tradition. Dismissing the Mud Pyramid Mosque because "Military Caste also gives two culture" is a non sequitur, and seems like an attempt to retroactively justify a decision that's already been made. Two culture is two culture, and the fact that it's possibly to get two culture elsewhere is irrelevant. I guess Military Caste does mean that the marginal benefit of two culture is slightly less with Honor than with Liberty/Tradition, but...

--Also on the subject of the Mud Pyramid Mosque, I find your dismissal of the gold-maintenance savings baffling. Temples are EXPENSIVE. I typically have five or so Temples, making that a savings of 10 gpt. If you're doing a lot of conquering, you'll probably have even more than this. You give Germany's army-maintenance savings a 3/5 rating for potentially saving 20 gpt at turn 200, while dismissing Mud Pyramid savings as negligible. This is simply inconsistent.

--I think you're completely misinterpreting the purpose of Chateau and Moai. Who cares if Farms/Mines would be better for the first two-thirds of the game? These improvements are strictly meant for increasing tourism output, and you don't need to build them until Hotels or later. They really do make a big difference in the endgame, easily adding up to a couple hundred culture, especially if you've done a bit of conquering.

--You seem to frequently dismiss abilities you don't like as "roleplaying". Frankly, I think this is a non-constructive approach that shows a lack of willingness to engage. I also think it's kinda insulting to people who might think that these things are actually good. For example, you dismiss Rome's UA as roleplaying, whereas I think that UA is actually quite good. It really doesn't take much to turn that UA into "+25% hammers when making buildings in expos". It takes planning to make that happen, but so does everything.

Similarly, I agree that Feitoria's are pretty crappy, but that's because 1: I believe that City-State allies are so valuable that I often have all the CS luxes I want anyway, making Feitorias only useful in the marginal situations where I'm unable to maintain the alliances I want and 2: Navigation is often a really inconvenient tech, meaning Feitorias might come too late to make a difference. Dismissing Feitorias as "roleplaying" isn't useful for anyone.

--Finally, some minor technical corrections: Burial Tombs cost no maintenance, making them even stronger than your rating. Carthage gets free Harbors immediately, and does not need to research Compass to get this benefit.

Manpanzee said:

--Finally, some minor technical corrections: Burial Tombs cost no maintenance, making them even stronger than your rating. Carthage gets free Harbors immediately, and does not need to research Compass to get this benefit.

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You do need to research wheel to have the harbors form a city connection though

Thanks, Manpanzee. I appreciate it.

I'd like to respond with some questions, and these are real and interrogative, not rhetorical. If there is an error in my analysis, I'd like to fix it:

1. How much easier to win the game do you think border expansion makes it? Provided you don't lose tiles to the AI or a CS, you'll get around to working them all eventually, right?

2. Do you build MPM every game? I suppose I devalue Mud Mosques for a reason I didn't specify in the analysis, which is that I can't see it being worth doing so. If you're not going to found, and you're playing a Domination game with the Songhai, you will not need to produce your own faith. In all my war games I'm the faith leader by mid game purely because I've conquered everyone else. And if you do found, then you're going to build them anyway. Having them free is nice, but Germany are going to save a ton of gold every game. Songhai less so, I feel. Or you'll build them and save gold, but it will have been suboptimal to do so. I'd like to test this when the Songhai come to the DCL, and perhaps revise my position after that. Right now, I'm not seeing it?

3. Can you explain more (perhaps mathematically) about the difference that Chateaux and Moais could make? In particular I want to know if the TPT increase is significant enough to say that it makes the game easier to win.

4. When I say roleplaying, I do not aim to be disparaging to the people who want to play a different way. I more meant that these features were programmed to lend 'lore', for want of a better word, to the game, generating effects that are perhaps aimed at imitating real-life history. Never mind that they get it wrong sometimes in terms of accuracy (Boudicca was from Norfolk but she speaks Welsh and wears a Scottish Clan Tartan kilt) but they also go so far as to make abilities that don't perform well on all difficulty levels. I love the idea of the Indonesia civ in theory. It's just that they aren't very good. The roleplaying side of things is great. I actually do it a bit when I play on Immortal or Emperor, including talking to myself and a whole host of other crazy idiosyncrasies. But on Deity play I have to play optimally or lose. I'm not a great player, yet, by my own standards.

Thank you for your corrections

Manpanzee said:

Ok Consentient, here be some constructive criticism. I'm trying to focus on specific points of analysis, not on civ rankings.

--I think your analysis undervalues and/or ignores the border-expansion benefits of UBs with +culture. Both the Wat and the Mud Pyramid Mosque make a significant difference for border expansion, especially if you aren't playing Tradition. Dismissing the Mud Pyramid Mosque because "Military Caste also gives two culture" is a non sequitur, and seems like an attempt to retroactively justify a decision that's already been made. Two culture is two culture, and the fact that it's possibly to get two culture elsewhere is irrelevant. I guess Military Caste does mean that the marginal benefit of two culture is slightly less with Honor than with Liberty/Tradition, but...

--Also on the subject of the Mud Pyramid Mosque, I find your dismissal of the gold-maintenance savings baffling. Temples are EXPENSIVE. I typically have five or so Temples, making that a savings of 10 gpt. If you're doing a lot of conquering, you'll probably have even more than this. You give Germany's army-maintenance savings a 3/5 rating for potentially saving 20 gpt at turn 200, while dismissing Mud Pyramid savings as negligible. This is simply inconsistent.

--I think you're completely misinterpreting the purpose of Chateau and Moai. Who cares if Farms/Mines would be better for the first two-thirds of the game? These improvements are strictly meant for increasing tourism output, and you don't need to build them until Hotels or later. They really do make a big difference in the endgame, easily adding up to a couple hundred culture, especially if you've done a bit of conquering.

--You seem to frequently dismiss abilities you don't like as "roleplaying". Frankly, I think this is a non-constructive approach that shows a lack of willingness to engage. I also think it's kinda insulting to people who might think that these things are actually good. For example, you dismiss Rome's UA as roleplaying, whereas I think that UA is actually quite good. It really doesn't take much to turn that UA into "+25% hammers when making buildings in expos". It takes planning to make that happen, but so does everything.

Similarly, I agree that Feitoria's are pretty crappy, but that's because 1: I believe that City-State allies are so valuable that I often have all the CS luxes I want anyway, making Feitorias only useful in the marginal situations where I'm unable to maintain the alliances I want and 2: Navigation is often a really inconvenient tech, meaning Feitorias might come too late to make a difference. Dismissing Feitorias as "roleplaying" isn't useful for anyone.

--Finally, some minor technical corrections: Burial Tombs cost no maintenance, making them even stronger than your rating. Carthage gets free Harbors immediately, and does not need to research Compass to get this benefit.

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Indeed, only people going for large-scale conquering (not everyone) will open honor. Unless you are Shoshone or maybe America, cpt in satellites is, in my opinion, a rare commodity and should be valued higher.

Gold maintenance saved is indeed nice, but it's the fact that TEMPLES are built so often (as opposed to, say, castles for Mughal forts) so you're looking at a free 2 gpt/2cpt per city sub t-100; basically a free religious belief or two even.

Actually, I work ONE chateau/MULTIPLE moai tile (because of food ships) starting from midgame onwards, for the reason above: border expansion. Culture is easily translated to gold this way (otherwise you might need to buy the tiles which might cost a fortune). Also affects tiles that you can't buy, but can be obtained by culture (aluminum for those hydro plants 5 tiles away before anyone else comes even close to getting the tech? Coal 5 tiles away? An extra lux copy 5 tiles away? No problem for a city with 30 cpt...) And then, of course, the tourism thing.
France's bonus also applies to Oxford, Hermitage, and Museum (buildings you are guaranteed to get, with aesthetics finisher we're looking at perhaps 14 free base cpt tpt from the capitol which gets all the modifiers tacked on), so, free Eiffel tower without the happiness; and the OP forgot about Louvre, a wonder which is quite easy to get and has the biggest theming bonus, as most AIs do not go Exploration. What prevents France from being higher is not that their bonuses are useless, it's because they have nothing going for them early game, similar to Brazil; but Brazil's tpt bonus are higher, but that's all.

I don't really understand what the OP means by "roleplaying" anyway. Rome's UA is not useless by any means esp. you are not wonderwhoring; the capitol is usually the first to get those up. Have gold to rush buy only in the capitol? No problem; you get a bonus in all the satellites and puppets.

Talk to me again about how feitorias are crap when your capitol wants a WLTKD that only exists one copy in the world and the current ally has 200+ influence on you. Even if you would buy the CS out, you've wasted thousands of gold. Besides at that stage in the game (assuming peaceful play); what is left for your workers to be building? You might as well put them to good use before you call them back for railroads and uranium. If you go CV, it is not strange to go archaeology before Science theory even, or at least before plastics.
And frankly for civs who play tall peaceful, we run so many internal routes and rush buy stuff for wonderwhoring we are quite often short on gold; a UA which increases gold on each route that we DO send out (in the end you're going to have to send some external routes, usually the 4th or 5th route we obtain), is pretty useful (if you would disagree, then from now on don't build a market in your capitol, for instance... if you would waste money building that market, the money increase in each route is similar, or even less than that gained from Portugal's UA, unless your capitol is really in the middle of a wasteland with very little resource diversity). It is less useful when late game you are making 300 gpt anyway, but midgame it helps. (and someone show me the game code where AIs decide to be nice to you or not based on the gold it makes on the TR YOU send... In my experience a route that gives them 1 gpt is just as likely to get a DoF as a route that gives them 5. Sometimes the DoF comes because THEY send you the route and not because anything you do, so I don't think Morocco's UA does anything more than a neutral civ as far as diplomacy goes)

Songhai has some good uniqueness in it and is a formidable civilization. The pyramid mud mosque is free in maintenance and is built quick. Starting with Songhai could be really interesting with a piety start because of the quick building opener. Once you get to philosophy quick, you get to build that pyramid mud mosque quick, with free maintenance. Once you add up that to the theocracy social policy, your gpt will increase 25%. Its rival in gods and kings, Ethiopia, can also be a better rivalry.
Once you have a stele up and maybe a shrine (you don't have to) you can be ahead in faith quicker than most civilizations. At full speed, you can have 2 faith from a stele and then the other 2 faith from the shrine if you decide to start with piety. It would be very difficult for Ethiopia to miss out on building its religion because of the stele.
These are both good religion starting religions, and Indonesia which is also a religious civilization started out in brave new world. Why? Unique Atttributes of Indonesia are 2 new luxuries for any new city that gets built in a different island than the original island's starting location. These new cities can never get razed and the luxuries can be kept by anyone who keeps these resources. Brazil on the other hand really does seem like a good brave new world civilization because its carnival unique attribute, carnival, allows people to double its tourism during their golden ages.

What does this mean? Too happy? It could.. Happiness in civilizations and overall, the monarchy social policy in tradition, can make a Brazil civilization take advantage of your civilization if your civilization ends up in a golden age, particularly if Brazil has a good tourism output. Being influenced by Brazil is more obvious than it.

The Shoshone are another civilization that begins with way more expansion tiles in the beginning. This to me is a good advantage when you need to improve a lot of local resources. A larger land mass can allow you to grow your civilization quick without having your citizens turn into idle citizens that produce 1 hammer. If you build a shoshone city next to a civilization that wants its resources, you have a larger probability of stealing their luxuries near other civilization's lands, particularly if that civilization didn't have a tile on the luxury.

consentient said:

1. How much easier to win the game do you think border expansion makes it? Provided you don't lose tiles to the AI or a CS, you'll get around to working them all eventually, right?

2. Do you build MPM every game? I suppose I devalue Mud Mosques for a reason I didn't specify in the analysis, which is that I can't see it being worth doing so. If you're not going to found, and you're playing a Domination game with the Songhai, you will not need to produce your own faith. In all my war games I'm the faith leader by mid game purely because I've conquered everyone else. And if you do found, then you're going to build them anyway. Having them free is nice, but Germany are going to save a ton of gold every game. Songhai less so, I feel. Or you'll build them and save gold, but it will have been suboptimal to do so. I'd like to test this when the Songhai come to the DCL, and perhaps revise my position after that. Right now, I'm not seeing it?

3. Can you explain more (perhaps mathematically) about the difference that Chateaux and Moais could make? In particular I want to know if the TPT increase is significant enough to say that it makes the game easier to win.

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I should start out by saying that I never go all-out for early conquest. Even if going for Domination, I prefer to tech up continuously and make things easy for myself by eventually squishing people with Rocket Artillery/X-Coms/etc. So my analysis is based on a full game with lots of buildings and continuous population growth. Also, I mostly play Liberty right now.

1. If you're playing non-Tradition and still emphasizing fast growth, you're basically always going to have un-acquired tiles that you want to work. You simply can't afford to buy every tile you want, and thus will be stuck working, e.g., non-irrigated farms for long stretches of the game. Cultural border expansion is thus very valuable. There are other things you can do improve border expansion, such as buying faith buildings, but if you aren't opening Tradition then it'll still be slower than the ideal. Every little bit counts.

2. I think Temples are almost universally worth building. Even if you don't found, on Deity you will have AI religions in your lands. Many of these religions give you things to do with faith, while others provide direct bonuses to Temples. It's not uncommon to have multiple religions sweeping through your lands, perhaps even giving you access to 3+ faith buildings per city, if you time your purchases right. So I will almost always build Temples everywhere before too long, making this a "free" bonus to something I'm doing anyway.

3. Moai I'm not too sure about. I haven't played enough Polynesia to say how much they're "usually" worth. But I have given some thought to Chateaus. I'd estimate that you can get an average of five Chateaus per city. Each Chateau provides three culture, which translates into three base tourism with Hotels and Airports. A Chateau in a city with NVC provides six base tourism. So we have an average of 15 base tourism from Chateaus in non-capital cities, and 30 base tourism from Chateaus in the capital. With a five-city empire, this amounts to 90 base tourism. Factor in modifiers from Internet and Freedom, and this results in over 200 tourism from Chateaus alone. It's also very easy to increase your number of Chateaus through conquest, since every city has luxury resources.