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2. Not necessarily. The point I was making is the arguments for the inclusion of Italy highlight its role in the Renaissance. So I noted that we've already had a Renaissance focused expansion and thus makes its inclusion now seem..odd. So it has less to do with the industrial era, and more to do with the Italy people want having already had its moment in the sun pass by. "

3. This makes sense, but only if they're playing well thought out mindgames. Which, honestly, they havent shown signs of. Pictures of shadows and buildings on a poster are far from reverse psychology.

4. Sure, after they rebelled. The bastards.

I have the feeling they think they're being more obvious than they are, or at the very least that people here are overthinking it.

The Zulu giveaway was so basic they might as well have said "The next civ is the Zulu" straightaway.

Assyria was trailed by a unit with an Assyrian-style icon.

I still suspect everyone would have got Portugal straightaway if the supposedly helpful hint hadn't made it seem much more ambiguous than it was.

They showed a unit that's evidently Native American.

They've explicitly referred to Morocco once it was clear no one was picking up on the Kasbah hint they specifically asked people to look at.

Chances are the achievement is intended as a similarly obvious "look, Italy isn't in". Quite possibly showing Venice as the only 'unaccounted for' city-state change was intended as a deliberate hint that Venice is a civ - after all, if Italy had been added they could have shown the CS that replaced Florence or Genoa instead.

Also note that they've made certain reveals as apparent responses to fan speculation. So after the Kongo debate, they stepped in and revealed that Mbwanza-Kongo was a CS. The Venice hint only emerged after Italy and Venice threads abounded.
 
1. Indonesian culture is directly descended from the rich Malay culture that permeates the entire Malay Archipelago, a culture that has given rise to countless kingdoms and sultanates, a rich literary language (Jawi), arts (batik making, wayang kulit, kris-forging). It has absorbed cultural influences from India (Hinduism and Buddhism, Sanskrit loanwords), Arabia (Islam, Arabic loanwords) and China (Overseas Chinese settlers giving rise to the Peranakan culture). I'm an ethnic Chinese living in the region, and I can tell you that its culture is just as rich and colourful as India's or China's.

All great points, truly, but just a few things I think should be cleared up:

There are many accepted names for it but I dislike "Malay Archipelago" because it implies Malaysia is the largest chain of islands.

The term "Indonesian Archipelago" is the one I personally believe - and strongly believe at that - people should be using.

"Indo-Aussie" is the only other name I've heard and that is not so bad in the sense that it allows people to visually understand that it stretches all the way to the tip of Australia.

Edit: Cut out last two sentences [see post below]
 
One strong argument for Italy is that it is one of the world's premiere tourist destinations. Mind you, many places are big tourist meccas, but Italy has been on people's Must See and Bucket Lists from the early 19th Century. In fact it is one of the earliest major destinations for travelers since tourism became a commonplace pastime some two hundred years ago. Since tourism is an entirely new aspect to Civ V, I can see why they might select a nation that will best represent that side of the game, particularly towards the end game. The Romans were not similarly prioritized, but Italians since the mid-1800's have welcomed millions upon millions of tourists to see the country's ancient and Renaissance works and wonders. A similar argument can of course be made for other countries, but I think that Italy's candidacy as a top tourism nation is worth thinking about.

Yes, this would work, and Grand Tour is a better UA name than Carnival ... but still, pretty much the ideal way to represent this is already taken by Brazil.

A European civ and with everything in favour of Italy so far, it seems like we will have Italy and Morocco. Second most likely is oddly enough the Normans in my opinion because of that stupid motte and bailey. We haven't had a "What the hell" civ in a while since, a distinct possibility.

Well, not since the Huns in, let's think, the last set of civs that were added to the game...

The Normans aren't a "what the hell" civ - they overlap too much with several other European civs and wouldn't obviously bring anything terribly new playstyle wise, but they make sense as a civilization. They just don't fit this expansion in any way, shape or form.
 
Yes, this would work, and Grand Tour is a better UA name than Carnival ... but still, pretty much the ideal way to represent this is already taken by Brazil.

Not necessarily - remember when Portugal was given a trade UA and lots of people thought there was no way we'd get another trade-focused civ, and now we're getting another trade UA? Even though Brazil's and France's new UA deal with tourism, that doesn't mean that Italy's potential UA can't also relate to tourism or culture in some way, or be an extremely creative use of the tourism or culture mechanic rather than the more hardcore focused culture/tourism UA that Brazil and France have.
 
Brazil has the tourist addition on lock. If Italy makes it in I think it will do more to generate culture or perhaps trade. At the end of the day, most of these new civs should do something to add to the expansion rather than fulfill our desires to play a civilization we love. Can the Normans do that? (Serious question; I know nothing of them.)

Also, the Zulu were probably added due to the support of the fans rather than for the sake of the expansion.
 
1. Indonesian culture is directly descended from the rich Malay culture that permeates the entire Malay Archipelago, a culture that has given rise to countless kingdoms and sultanates, a rich literary language (Jawi), arts (batik making, wayang kulit, kris-forging).

While it would be the only Malay civ in the game if included (which itself is reason enough to include them given the size of this ethnic group), doesn't this combine a few traditions from outside the core Indonesian region? Kris are of particular significance in the Malay Peninsula, which existed mostly as independent kingdoms throughout the Majapahit period, so this is at least a shared tradition (as is batik).

2. Indonesia's status as the source of the spice trade drove the Age of Exploration by the Portuguese, Spanish (Magellan) and the Dutch. The spice must flow; and it came from Indonesia.

It came from Indonesia, but mostly reached European markets via India and China.

Linking the Srivijaya/Majapahit to modern Indonesia is in fact far better than linking the Celts to modern Scotland

Nearly anything is better than linking the Celts to modern Scotland...

Javanese and Malay are very much living languages, unlike Gaelic.

Gaelic is a living language, just not one that's closely-related to historical Celtic languages of the period represented by the game's Celts.

Also, the Zulu were probably added due to the support of the fans rather than for the sake of the expansion.

This has been confirmed in interview; we've been told that about a third of the civs selected were chosen because of fan interest, with the Zulus given as a specific example. It's not yet clear what the other two are - Assyria and Poland are possibilities, but both can equally well be argued to relate to expansion themes. The Native American civ is probably one of the others, since it's otherwise unclear how Native Americans fit into BNW's themes. The third could well be an unrevealed civ.

There are many accepted names for it but I dislike "Malay Archipelago" because it implies Malaysia is the largest chain of islands.

The term "Indonesian Archipelago" is the one I personally believe - and strongly believe at that - people should be using.

I prefer "Malay Archipelago" if only for its historical resonance for exploration and natural history, although the term seems to have fallen into disuse. The "Malay" of the name predates the use of "Malaysia" (and possibly "Malaya") and accurately describes the dominant ethnic group throughout the islands - if anything it's Malaysia that's misnamed since the majority of Malays live in Indonesia.

Biogeographically, "Sundaland" and "Wallacea" are current usages but both are required to describe the archipelago as a whole (and Sundaland still extends into the Malay Peninsula).

The generally accepted modern regional name appears to be Indo-Malaya, although again this encompasses more than simply the archipelago, encompassing all of Sundaland (including the Malay Peninsula) and all of Wallacea (including New Guinea). In marine terms, the Indonesian archipelago + the Philippines are also called the Coral Triangle. Tectonically they also make up the major part of the "Ring of Fire".

The only available name for the main island group itself is, of course, Indonesia ... which would annoy people in Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah, the Philippines, Timor-Leste and Papua New Guinea (and likely Aceh as well).

Really, I think Malay Archipelago remains the best option, since it's specifically confined to the island group and covers the entire territory.
 
1. Indonesian culture is directly descended from the rich Malay culture that permeates the entire Malay Archipelago, a culture that has given rise to countless kingdoms and sultanates, a rich literary language (Jawi), arts (batik making, wayang kulit, kris-forging). It has absorbed cultural influences from India (Hinduism and Buddhism, Sanskrit loanwords), Arabia (Islam, Arabic loanwords) and China (Overseas Chinese settlers giving rise to the Peranakan culture). I'm an ethnic Chinese living in the region, and I can tell you that its culture is just as rich and colourful as India's or China's.

This is slightly misleading. Culture is very fluid and you cannot say Indonesian culture directly descended from Malay culture.

Batik, wayang kulit, kris for example all came from Java and thus is most strongly associated with Indonesia, but would not have been possible if not for the fluid and complex sharing of cultures around SE Asia and elsewhere

Yes though it is true that Indonesian culture influenced Thailand and Malaysia and India and China just as much as those places influenced Indonesia (and the entire archipelago) right back. But for all the complex culture sharing there is still a very distinct Indonesian culture born from itself

I agree with you that Indonesian culture is just as rich and colorful as India and China

Edit: syntax
 
Brazil has the tourist addition on lock. If Italy makes it in I think it will do more to generate culture or perhaps trade. At the end of the day, most of these new civs should do something to add to the expansion rather than fulfill our desires to play a civilization we love. Can the Normans do that? (Serious question; I know nothing of them.)

Also, the Zulu were probably added due to the support of the fans rather than for the sake of the expansion.

Truthfully, the Normans would probably be another warmonger type with a religious vibe to them. That's something we don't have yet. They were some of the most ardent crusaders, plus they conquered Normandy, England, Wales, Sicily, Southern Italy, and parts of North Africa pretty much for the hell of it.

I'm not saying that we should have Normans, just that they would indeed offer something new.
 
An unspecified unit has a strength of 34. That's really helpful.

Whoever asked that question, punch yourself in the eye right now.

That was when the question thread was a joke thread, back when we didn't know it was being taken seriously
 
Truthfully, the Normans would probably be another warmonger type with a religious vibe to them. That's something we don't have yet. They were some of the most ardent crusaders, plus they conquered Normandy, England, Wales, Sicily, Southern Italy, and parts of North Africa pretty much for the hell of it.

I'm not saying that we should have Normans, just that they would indeed offer something new.

Holy Rome would satisfy that too. (Though no evidence of it, obviously)

...I just want Charlemagne, is it too hard to ask?
 
1. Indonesian culture is directly descended from the rich Malay culture that permeates the entire Malay Archipelago, a culture that has given rise to countless kingdoms and sultanates, a rich literary language (Jawi), arts (batik making, wayang kulit, kris-forging). It has absorbed cultural influences from India (Hinduism and Buddhism, Sanskrit loanwords), Arabia (Islam, Arabic loanwords) and China (Overseas Chinese settlers giving rise to the Peranakan culture). I'm an ethnic Chinese living in the region, and I can tell you that its culture is just as rich and colourful as India's or China's.

...

Ahh.. I am disagreed about "Malay culture"..
Many arts, such as batik and kris is come from Javanese, not Malays.. Even the term "Jawi" is derived from "Java"..

And I agree with seancolorado.., "Malay Archipelago" is a bit misleading.. :crazyeye:
 
I wouldn't mind the Holy Roman Empire, but only if they weren't called "Holy Rome". The only time in history they've ever been called that was in Civ IV--and that was a game that thought "Native America" was a thing. . . .
 
I prefer "Malay Archipelago" if only for its historical resonance for exploration and natural history, although the term seems to have fallen into disuse. The "Malay" of the name predates the use of "Malaysia" (and possibly "Malaya") and accurately describes the dominant ethnic group throughout the islands - if anything it's Malaysia that's misnamed since the majority of Malays live in Indonesia.

Biogeographically, "Sundaland" and "Wallacea" are current usages but both are required to describe the archipelago as a whole (and Sundaland still extends into the Malay Peninsula).

The generally accepted modern regional name appears to be Indo-Malaya, although again this encompasses more than simply the archipelago, encompassing all of Sundaland (including the Malay Peninsula) and all of Wallacea (including New Guinea). In marine terms, the Indonesian archipelago + the Philippines are also called the Coral Triangle. Tectonically they also make up the major part of the "Ring of Fire".

The only available name for the main island group itself is, of course, Indonesia ... which would annoy people in Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah, the Philippines, Timor-Leste and Papua New Guinea (and likely Aceh as well).

Really, I think Malay Archipelago remains the best option, since it's specifically confined to the island group and covers the entire territory.

That's why I don't like it. Europeans named it 'Malay' but currently it now evokes the distinct Malay culture which Indonesians like me do not find appropriate.

Perhaps it's better not to even label it so simply:

If you are talking about the Malaysian sphere, it's Malay culture and Malay archipelago

If you are talking about Indonesia, ditto but replace with Indonesian. Philippines, ditto. Etc

Better to specify, not simplify

Edit: New stuff to add: What about "Nusantara"? That included Malaysia to East Timor. It is more meaningful than Malay because it encompasses the greatest empire in that region: Majapahit, and this does not discriminate but rather includes most of Southeast Asia including Malaysia. Malaysia was never an empire so the term Malay is misleading
 
I wouldn't mind the Holy Roman Empire, but only if they weren't called "Holy Rome". The only time in history they've ever been called that was in Civ IV--and that was a game that thought "Native America" was a thing. . . .

Oh, I know. Holy Rome was just easier to type. The Holy Roman Empire would hopefully add what the Normans would.
 
For some reason, the dodginess of Kate's answering the Europe civ question makes me think that perhaps it is the Normans. Would be an even worse civ than Italy :p
 
...
The only available name for the main island group itself is, of course, Indonesia ... which would annoy people in Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah, the Philippines, Timor-Leste and Papua New Guinea (and likely Aceh as well).

Really, I think Malay Archipelago remains the best option, since it's specifically confined to the island group and covers the entire territory.

And Malay Archipelago would annoy people in Indonesia, Philippiness, Timor, and Papua.. :p

Before Republic of Indonesia is established.., the term "Indonesia" is already used in academic circles outside the Netherlands as a legit geographic term..

Heck, even Indonesia itself is mean Indian Archipelago..

...

Edit: New stuff to add: What about "Nusantara"? That included Malaysia to East Timor. It is more meaningful than Malay because it encompasses the greatest empire in that region: Majapahit, and this does not discriminate but rather includes most of Southeast Asia including Malaysia. Malaysia was never an empire so the term Malay is misleading

Yeah.., Nusantara is the best name for Indonesian Archipelago, IMO..
The problem is, people outside the archipelago hardly know about this name.. :sad:
 
Yes I feel bad for the Italians with the amount of tourists. I've never experienced such a high volume of obnoxious people as I did in Venice. When it falls into the sea i won't weep

So you blame the city for its tourists?
 
I have the feeling they think they're being more obvious than they are, or at the very least that people here are overthinking it.

The Zulu giveaway was so basic they might as well have said "The next civ is the Zulu" straightaway.

Assyria was trailed by a unit with an Assyrian-style icon.

I still suspect everyone would have got Portugal straightaway if the supposedly helpful hint hadn't made it seem much more ambiguous than it was.

They showed a unit that's evidently Native American.

They've explicitly referred to Morocco once it was clear no one was picking up on the Kasbah hint they specifically asked people to look at.

Chances are the achievement is intended as a similarly obvious "look, Italy isn't in". Quite possibly showing Venice as the only 'unaccounted for' city-state change was intended as a deliberate hint that Venice is a civ - after all, if Italy had been added they could have shown the CS that replaced Florence or Genoa instead.

Also note that they've made certain reveals as apparent responses to fan speculation. So after the Kongo debate, they stepped in and revealed that Mbwanza-Kongo was a CS. The Venice hint only emerged after Italy and Venice threads abounded.

The amount of research and the steps in logic that it took to get to "Venice is replaced" makes me think that they didn't even realise that we'd get a hint that way. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that it wouldn't have even crossed their minds that we would think about that. I honestly think that it was just a case of Riga just happening to come up rather than them specifically showing them off to give it away.
 
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