TAXATION... Oh no! Not an other feature request...

<Nexus> · Jun 17, 2015

...yes it is an other feature request

Why?

It was explained already that currently there is no taxation system in RAND. The for sliders

science:,

,

,

) do not represent how much you tax your citizens, just where you spend your ~~money~~ resources.

An other reason is surplus Happiness. Let me explain:
Not long ago "Unhappiness from empire size" and "Unhappiness from distance from capital" were introduced to the mod to deal with the high amount of happiness sources. However these two features are just "punishing" solutions, that seem to completely eliminate the chance of building world empires.

How?

Introduce a new slider under the other 4 already existing: Taxes. This slider would increase the base :commerce:

produced in cities at the cost of happiness.

Here's how it would work:

Taxes

penalty
10% 1
20% 2
30% 4
40% 8
50% 16

(more than 50% taxation should not be possible for exploitation reasons)

This way the surplus

could be used in a productive way. "Unhappiness from empire size" and "Unhappiness from distance from capital" could be decreased or caped at some level.

The main goal of this feature (in my mind) would be to allow world empires again, while smaller ones could financially prosper.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Jun 17, 2015

No way. Besides, gold already represents taxation: it's what the state earns and don't spend on anything else. And the higher the gold percent is, that is the lower the other sliders are, the higher taxation. Which by the way already causes unhappiness for some civics.

<Nexus> · Jun 17, 2015

45°38'N-13°47'E;13865387 said:
No way.

Yes, I knew. Just... had to write it :rolleyes:

<Nexus> · Jun 17, 2015

Just one more thing.

45°38'N-13°47'E;13865387 said:
Besides, gold already represents taxation: it's what the state earns and don't spend on anything else. And the higher the gold percent is, that is the lower the other sliders are, the higher taxation. Which by the way already causes unhappiness for some civics.

I based my reasoning on this:

Afforess: Replacing Inflation said:
"Gold" in the civilization sense isn't really even money. It's more a supply of government willpower & supplies. Why do I think it's not money? You can't simply throw millions of dollars at a cathedral and get it built tomorrow, in real life. So "Gold" isn't money. Plus, gold isn't earned by taxation. One can argue that the sliders are a form of taxation, and I certainly play with that concept with civic anger, but is it really? Do increases taxes in real life come at the expense of culture or scientific innovation? That's a stretch.

I agree with the words above, that's why I said that RAND is missing taxation.

(I knew you don't want new features, and I didn't expect it to be done, just... I'm an idea-monger, a brainstrorm-maniac. Forgive me for that :lol:

)

Afforess · Jun 17, 2015

I totally agree that RAND is missing taxation. What I don't agree with is that we need it. RAND is missing plenty of features, and that is just fine. Also, I think you left out another important half of the slider, some states have reverse taxation (subsidies), states like Saudi Arabia have a tax system that effectively pays nationals for being a citizen out of their vast wealth from oil proceeds (this is sort of a bribe from the Monarchy to be happy with the otherwise oppressive state).

I think in civilization your net commerce is sort of your civilization's gross domestic product (GDP). The sliders represent your focus with investing your wealth - culture, science, gold, etc.

Could an argument be made for a taxation/subsidy slider? Absolutely. But it would need to be compelling. I think bolting it on for the sake of happiness is not very compelling, and is likely to throw more stuff out of balance (extra gold -> more science, more production -> faster gameplay, easier gameplay, etc)

So a case for taxation could definitely be made, but this isn't it.

HorseshoeHermit · Jun 18, 2015

ROM AND has taxation. BTS has taxation. When the state has expenses it can't pay, it diverts funds and economic activity suffers. (And yes, taxation creates inefficiencies as surely as subsidies guarantee deadweight loss. Except with Georgism, apparently.)

What ROM AND doesn't have is a body that reacts to tax codes, because there are none. The slider flies around to whatever you want, which means binary basically. Plus shenanigans with espionage for counterintelligence if you want to get fancy.

Now, if you had a game that actually cared about moving the slider, or that cared about eating into a treasury - something to pressure the slider out of the trivial minmaxxing of binary usage, you'd have a taxation impossible to forget about. But also potentially quite frustrating. I would actually hate the very thing I just described to be used. Before doing such a thing, somebody would have to figure out what :gold:

really is, which is by no means clear.

Too much happiness sounds like a fun problem. Let me think about that.

<Nexus> · Jun 18, 2015

Afforess said:
I totally agree that RAND is missing taxation. What I don't agree with is that we need it. RAND is missing plenty of features, and that is just fine. Also, I think you left out another important half of the slider, some states have reverse taxation (subsidies), states like Saudi Arabia have a tax system that effectively pays nationals for being a citizen out of their vast wealth from oil proceeds (this is sort of a bribe from the Monarchy to be happy with the otherwise oppressive state).

I think in civilization your net commerce is sort of your civilization's gross domestic product (GDP). The sliders represent your focus with investing your wealth - culture, science, gold, etc.

Could an argument be made for a taxation/subsidy slider? Absolutely. But it would need to be compelling. I think bolting it on for the sake of happiness is not very compelling, and is likely to throw more stuff out of balance (extra gold -> more science, more production -> faster gameplay, easier gameplay, etc)

So a case for taxation could definitely be made, but this isn't it.

Okay, I've got your point. THX

BTW, I'm missing the concept of inflation a bit.
Is there a way to revive it in a functional way?

I think of something like creating money for your civ out of thin air. So you get some financial boost immediately but the prices all go up.
And some (but only some) percent of your inflation would affect the whole world.

<Nexus> · Jun 18, 2015

Horseshoe_Hermi said:
ROM AND has taxation. BTS has taxation. When the state has expenses it can't pay, it diverts funds and economic activity suffers. (And yes, taxation creates inefficiencies as surely as subsidies guarantee deadweight loss. Except with Georgism, apparently.)

What ROM AND doesn't have is a body that reacts to tax codes, because there are none. The slider flies around to whatever you want, which means binary basically. Plus shenanigans with espionage for counterintelligence if you want to get fancy.

Now, if you had a game that actually cared about moving the slider, or that cared about eating into a treasury - something to pressure the slider out of the trivial minmaxxing of binary usage, you'd have a taxation impossible to forget about. But also potentially quite frustrating. I would actually hate the very thing I just described to be used. Before doing such a thing, somebody would have to figure out what really is, which is by no means clear.

Too much happiness sounds like a fun problem. Let me think about that.

Well, one can say that the game has sort of taxation by declaring some of your income as taxes. :rolleyes:

The only problem is that you have zero affect on the level of it.
Some 4X games (Imperium Galactica or Galactic Civilizations) have real taxation system that affects your approval on your colonies.
So altogether I still say, that this game has NO taxation mechanics. The sliders are just the way to spend your quasi-taxes.

HorseshoeHermit · Jun 18, 2015

I basically agree with you. The game has taxes, but not enough (or anything) in the game reacts to it like to taxes, so it's not taxes.

TAXATION... Oh no! Not an other feature request...

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

45°38'N-13°47'E

Deity

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

Afforess

The White Wizard

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

<Nexus>

Traveler of the Multiverse

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty

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