A Case for Freedom?

Uh, no offense, but are we even playing the same game?

Order's tier 3 bonuses are 100% inferior to Freedom's.

There is a tourism bonus in both; Freedom's is better because it only requires having a broadcast tower as opposed to more happiness than the AI.

There is a spaceship bonus in both; Freedom's is better because it allows the purchase of spaceship parts with gold, whereas Order's requires... expending a great engineer? WTF? And 10 science? I'm getting thousands of science per turn and you want to give me 10 more? Even with % bonuses it's not a significant increase in tech. It might speed my entire tech process up by 1 turn.

Then there's a weirder comparison wherein Order gets free courthouses on city capture whereas Freedom can get free influence with city states for trade routes. Do the gold math on that and see which is better, ie, cost of influence in terms of gold versus cost of a courthouse.

Pretty much spot on. For cultural victories, Freedom is especially better at higher level difficulties where the Immortal/Deity AIs get an extreme happiness bonus, making it much harder to utilize order's tourism bonus. Freedom's tourism bonus is more consistent.

I think overall the ideologies are pretty balanced, maybe Autocracy needing a little boost.
 
I may be the only person that believes this but I find Autocracy a better ideology at deity for culture victories and of course domination victories.

To me Order's tier three tenets are pretty bad the really good tenets are +1 happiness for monuments, and 25% for factories are both excellent but everything else seems inferior to Freedom and Autocracy.
 
Tall + wide + Freedom = Great!

Freedom works really well going wide too. Freedom is good for any city with specialists. With SoL and Secularism, all those extra specialists from cities contribute hammers, science, and happiness! And your cities still grow with less food consumption on specialists with Freedom. Give it a try today!
 
I may be the only person that believes this but I find Autocracy a better ideology at deity for culture victories and of course domination victories.

To me Order's tier three tenets are pretty bad the really good tenets are +1 happiness for monuments, and 25% for factories are both excellent but everything else seems inferior to Freedom and Autocracy.

Order has:
+2 happiness on monuments
+1 happiness on University, Observatory (rare), Public School and Research Lab

Freedom has:
+1 Local Happiness per Mint (rare), Bank and Stock Exchange
+1 Local Happiness per Granary, Water Mill, Aqueduct and Hospital

So pretty much the same. Monuments are cheap but Research Labs are expense.
 
I must say I choose order 90% of the time. Autocracy is awesome too, but because few AI pick it I tend to neglect that one.

I don't feel freedom suits my play-style at all, sorry. Order: WTG. Emperor/Immortal btw.
 
There is a tourism bonus in both; Freedom's is better because it only requires having a broadcast tower as opposed to more happiness than the AI.

You're right, but your reasoning is wrong. Media Culture is the best tourism tenant because it is the only one that affects the strength of Great Musicians. If it didn't, Cultural Revolution and Cult of Personality would be significantly better.
 
You're right, but your reasoning is wrong. Media Culture is the best tourism tenant because it is the only one that affects the strength of Great Musicians. If it didn't, Cultural Revolution and Cult of Personality would be significantly better.

Cultural Revolution is highly situational; Cult of Personality is basically useless because it applies in so few scenarios
 
Cultural Revolution is highly situational; Cult of Personality is basically useless because it applies in so few scenarios

Cultural Revolution exploits game mechanics by giving you a bonus against the AI's favorite ideology. Cult of Personality is... the exact opposite of useless? I can guarantee you that anyone with truly insurmountable culture is going to be a super wide warmonger that stole most of his great works, IE Alex or Washington. These guys will probably still be warring in the Modern Era; just DOW whoever they're DOW'ing and reap in some extraordinary benefits. You don't need to fire a shot and you get a diplo bonus with this runaway civ for fighting a common enemy so it's even good for peaceful culture victories. I like to use it when the runaway warmonger is my neighbor and I've been able to maintain peaceful relations with him (usually by siccing him on his other neighbors).
 
If that's the case, sure. But in a game where that's not what's happening, it has no application at all.

And if the hold-out AI who's got the most culture isn't Order, then, again, Cultural Revolution doesn't do you much good.
 
I dont understand how order isn't the best, simply with Worker's Faculty (factories one). The only thing that matters in a science victory is science; the building of spaceship parts is trivial. Apart from building the very last part the build time of spaceship parts is all but irrelevant, unless you are doing something seriously wrong with your production.

Thus +25% science will save you far, far more turns that buying spaceship parts. Also skyscrapers (-33% gold cost for buildings) is insanely good. By that stage of the game, most of my expenditure will be on rush buying things, by a pretty good margin. Unless I'm buying an airforce, that will probably go on buildings. Being able to get hospitals/research labs much faster further helps a science victory. And if you dont want to buy things, Order has large bonuses to production. Really, I can't see how any policy comes close to Order in terms of building infrastructure and researching techs, and I dont see how anything affects winning as much as infrastructure and science.

For diplomatic, clearly, Order sucks, its not meant to be good for it.

For domination it depends. If you've taken most of the world already and just need to keep going to take the remaining 1/3 or 1/2 of the caps, I'd probably go order. If however, I'm having a late start to warmongering, I'd go autocracy for the +15exp and -33% buying costs (which are useless if all you're doing is upgrading units).

For cultural, its difficult I think. Order has two different +33% bonus to Freedom's one, but Freedom freedom's applies to all civs, although it does require an expensive late game building. I don't really know how to call this one, probably depends how early on tech wise you think you can win cultural (did it before Airports as france order) and what else your cities are doing.

Generally I would pick the policies as:
Lots of specialists - Freedom
Lots of cities - Order
Need to smash a lot of skulls - Autocracy

Of course, sometimes more than one (or none) of these applies so its more difficult. And of course, the state of diplomacy also matters.
 
I dont understand how order isn't the best, simply with Worker's Faculty (factories one). The only thing that matters in a science victory is science; the building of spaceship parts is trivial. Apart from building the very last part the build time of spaceship parts is all but irrelevant, unless you are doing something seriously wrong with your production.

...
Well, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but Civil Society and Universal Suffrage are pretty relevant to someone with a Science Victory in mind. Space Procurement's gold buying is more useful than burning Great Engineers (and the base science is too small and comes too late), but the "meat" of Freedom is in running tons of specialists for cheap and that's definitely science-related. This means that, particularly if you've taken Rationalism, you're generating more Science immediately from the first or second tenet, just from the extra specialists.

Skyscrapers is nice, but the science benefit is often questionable for me. I like to tune my economy so that I have minimal Gold income, and maximum Food growth. Food gets me population, which gets me science. If you're wasting growth so that you can save gold to rush buy your buildings, then you may be screwing yourself instead of helping, even with a buying bonus. The timing of Space Procurement makes a little hoarding of gold more worth it because of how it lets you end the game sooner in such a direct fashion. Think of it as a small bonus that has very good placement. Skyscrapers, on the other hand, seems prone to under-use. For one thing, gold has some uses that are more specialized than others. The only way to upgrade a military unit is through gold, and oftentimes the only way to influence a city state would be through gold. These are things you often need to do defensively in order to stave off an opponent. Buildings can be built without gold. And note that the production bonus tenets are in tier 2 with Workers Faculties.

Anyway, Universal Suffrage is a favorite of mine because it's such a strong bonus. People sometimes think Order is nice for Happiness, but Universal Suffrage is extremely potent. Socialist Realism is a good upfront bonus, but I think Freedom easily has the edge after tier 1. Even wide empires should be tall enough to benefit strongly from Universal Suffrage, particularly when Civil Society makes them so much more easy to run. Moreover, having that extra length on your Golden Ages can make a considerable difference. And remember that little bit of gold hoarding? There it is, right in the Golden Age, along with a ton of culture and production you wouldn't otherwise have. It's a Happiness tenet that offers more than just happiness, which is rare.

New Deal is merely a decent bonus. If I take my capital in my latest SV game, I would have 740 beakers with Workers Faculties, but I have 775 beakers with New Deal instead. But Workers Faculties would seem to end up helping more, due to the bonuses the other cities would receive. I just think Freedom has other tenets that more than make up for it.

Also, the Statue of Liberty is better than the Kremlin for a non-Domination VC.
 
Freedom can more easily purchase spaceship parts, but it gets no direct bonuses to science

Actually, it does; in form of New Deal tenent which gives +4 science yield to Great Academies. I always have at least 3 academies, and so this policy yields a bigger science boost than the Order one that adds +10 science to the capital.

Note that in both cases, these bonuses are multiplied by the science buildings present.

I would agree that Order has a bigger direct benefit to science in the form of the science bonus for having factories. Freedom instead gives an indirect bonus of allowing your cities to grow & run more specialists. If you have Rationalism, that's some additional science from the additional specialists.
 
Cultural Revolution is highly situational; Cult of Personality is basically useless because it applies in so few scenarios

Any autocrat with half a brain who wants to win culturally creates the scenarios by bribing for wars and joining in, or just hopping in on wars already in progress. You don't even have to fight to get the bonus.

If you sit there waiting for the AI to hand you a joint war, of course it will be useless. Autocracy is not an ideology that can just sit there and wait.
 
Pretty much spot on. For cultural victories, Freedom is especially better at higher level difficulties where the Immortal/Deity AIs get an extreme happiness bonus, making it much harder to utilize order's tourism bonus. Freedom's tourism bonus is more consistent.

I think overall the ideologies are pretty balanced, maybe Autocracy needing a little boost.

Immortal/Deity AI may get happiness bonuses, but their growth and width is more than enough to burn it all away and become even or less than the player's. Very often, there's only one AI that has run away with happiness, and usually, the happiness is due to having many happiness wonders, and not any inherent bonuses.

I don't know that autocracy needs a boost directly, but making the warmonger penalties less stupid would indirectly be all the buff Autocracy needs, IMO.

Uh, no offense, but are we even playing the same game?

Order's tier 3 bonuses are 100% inferior to Freedom's.

There is a tourism bonus in both; Freedom's is better because it only requires having a broadcast tower as opposed to more happiness than the AI.

Freedom's sounds better at first because "oh hey, +33% just for building a broadcast tower!" Unfortunately, it is not a final, "take everything together" modifier. What I mean by this is, look at the influence page. Mouse over total +% to total influence. These are final, everything together modifiers, and they are inherently stronger than bonuses to city tourism, because they work against the ideology penalty, and modify all cities automatically, with no further input required. Having more happiness as Order will be enough to totally negate the ideology penalty, which means the Order player can have a +100% bonus with other civs with Trade Route, Religion, Open Borders, and Diplomat -- even more than if your ideologies were the same, while simultaneously blocking your own tourism. Order also starts to get a large bonus with other Order civs in Tier 2, and Freedom never gets a bonus to other Freedom civs (though you might argue that this is part of what Media Culture does), so their culture victory will inevitably be slower.

Arguably, Freedom does get a larger boost from the World Games Win than Order does, but Order has a FAR larger chance of actually winning the world games, because they have HUGE production bonuses, and are rewarded for building factories in every city. Tall, thin empires generally have a lot of trouble winning the World Games, because they just don't have that massive combined hammer output that wide Order/Autocracy empires do.

Once again, though, this is a case of Freedom having more accessible bonuses at the cost of potential effectiveness. Freedom is "easy", and if none of the other special conditions line up, it has an advantage over the other two, because its bonuses never go away. However, the other two pull ahead when their special conditions do line up, as a counterbalance for being limited. Since the AI loves Order, Freedom is vulnerable to World Ideology, which, if passed, will almost inevitably activate Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Naturally, this is uncommon, and Freedom can just as easily wreck Order's plans with their greater number of city-states, so it all depends on the game.

There is a spaceship bonus in both; Freedom's is better because it allows the purchase of spaceship parts with gold, whereas Order's requires... expending a great engineer? WTF? And 10 science? I'm getting thousands of science per turn and you want to give me 10 more? Even with % bonuses it's not a significant increase in tech. It might speed my entire tech process up by 1 turn.

Perhaps we should look at the greater picture and not just the tier 3 tenet: Order gets a science bonus from each factory, as well as +1 Science(/food/gold/production) per city, and since Order is for wide empires, that adds up to quite a lot of science. Actually finishing the spaceship is almost never the problem with winning science victory, it's getting the science, and on that front, Order has every tool it needs to get ahead, more than surpassing its science penalty. Order also has an easier time of protecting its own science, thanks to Double Agents, so once it gets ahead, it tends to stay ahead, while still being able to steal techs from Freedom/Autocracy.

Then there's a weirder comparison wherein Order gets free courthouses on city capture whereas Freedom can get free influence with city states for trade routes. Do the gold math on that and see which is better, ie, cost of influence in terms of gold versus cost of a courthouse.

Now that's a silly comparison to make, because they both do completely different things, and are not comparable to each other at all.

On that note, however, Iron Curtain is actually quite useful, because it means you don't have to wait for resistance to end in order to get a city with normal happiness. Another useful side effect of this is, because you MUST annex a city in order to raze it, you suffer a much lower unhappiness hit when razing. It's a solid tenet, if situational.
 
Somebody did the math a little while ago and figured out that, even if all of your tiles are Academies, Workers' Faculties is still better than New Deal.
 
Somebody did the math a little while ago and figured out that, even if all of your tiles are Academies, Workers' Faculties is still better than New Deal.

That's incredible, but... even as this is good news for my argument, I would like to see this math.
 
That's incredible, but... even as this is good news for my argument, I would like to see this math.

I just checked this for my post upthread. I had 311 base science in Moscow with a +150% bonus, and ten academies, which comes out to (311 * 2.5 = ) 777 science. If I subtract 40 base science I get 271 and a +175% bonus comes out to 745. Am I making a math error?
 
I just checked this for my post upthread. I had 311 base science in Moscow with a +150% bonus, and ten academies, which comes out to (311 * 2.5 = ) 777 science. If I subtract 40 base science I get 271 and a +175% bonus comes out to 745. Am I making a math error?

You're only counting Moscow. Workers' Faculties also works on your other cities aside from your capital, and as long as the combined bonus they get from factories totals more than 32, Workers' Faculties wins out.

Still, I'm not sure this proves that Workers' Faculties is better even if *every* tile was an academy. One should hope not -- that many academies is much harder to accomplish.
 
You're only counting Moscow. Workers' Faculties also works on your other cities aside from your capital, and as long as the combined bonus they get from factories totals more than 32, Workers' Faculties wins out.
Yes, my other post acknowledges that. Anyway, there might be some sort of scaling issue where having tons and tons of academies makes Workers Faculties better again, but the thing is that Moscow didn't even have an Observatory. If I add in an Observatory, then the difference between New Deal and Workers Faculties grows at the number of academies I have.
 
Yes, my other post acknowledges that. Anyway, there might be some sort of scaling issue where having tons and tons of academies makes Workers Faculties better again, but the thing is that Moscow didn't even have an Observatory. If I add in an Observatory, then the difference between New Deal and Workers Faculties grows at the number of academies I have.

And this is why I wanted to see the math -- the claim seemed wrong, somehow.
 
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