Comparing Science Victory Speed with Cultural Victory Speed

Okay let me correct myself. Culture is not possible for every player. I can always win space or diplo but culture is much harder. Yeah winning culture is possible without landmarks or some wonders but much harder and slower. For me space and diplo with Deity OCC are easier than culture with 2-8 cities. Maybe lack of practice

Me too. I'm not able to win with any victory condition, specially domination.

If we strictly speak about speed, culture is in the same range as science. I take one GOTM (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=527840).
With the worst civ power-players can make a sub T250 victories. I don't think they'll be able to win science faster.

On Emperor and below, I can't respond to OP tips. Sacred Sites is over-powered. SVcan't sustain.

On Immortal, only continents and islands maps block SS. So speaking about speed between science and culture, is, IMHO, only for Immortal and Deity.

On Immortal, there's a GOTM which runs now (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=532866) will see if results are nearer a science game.

On Deity, I also have a lack of practice, because I prefer science games. But rather than turn 0, when first GW pops up, it's a better time to decide if you're going into spaceship or culture. You'll be around T80-100. Your empire will be settle and you met all civs. And because it's a science game until you need to choose against archaeology or fertilizer/plastics, the only difference is to stock GW/GA or to make a great work.
In my Deity games, I never had Learning Tower, Global Theatre or Uffizi. Sometimes Sistine and Louvre, nearly always Eiffel Tower and Sydney's Opera if I have a coastal city.
I use to play with only Oxford, Ermitage and Museum for thematic bonuses.

Never play an OCCcultural games, I need to try. :)
 
Best results are to have your first great WAM timed to appear the turn after you oxford into radio & pick up Futurism, then spam great people as fast as u can while bee-lining wonders that pop great people & hotels.

The 750 tourism you gain the turn after you gain futurism more than pays for the delay.

For even more fun go sacred sites.
 
I've just been wondering -- When do you guys usually beeline for Printing Press? I frequently find picking up Astronomy (for ocean crossing and observatory science boost) or Banking(More certain Forbidden Palace) more critical to go for after Education than Printing Press, do you guys not do this?

If after a cultural victory, I'd do it very quickly after Education. If you wait for Astronomy or Banking you'll introduce a high risk of an AI reaching Printing Press and completing Globe.

If I really wanted Forbidden Palace, then very quickly after Education would be the time to beeline to Banking as well (before Astronomy and Printing Press) since among the AIs that open Patronage at all, it's extremely popular. To be honest though, I'm very willing to let the AI take that world wonder.

Under other circumstances, I'd go for Astronomy shortly after both Education and getting the tech for workshops.

Yes, Education is more important than any world wonder.
 
On Emperor and below, I can't respond to OP tips. Sacred Sites is over-powered. SVcan't sustain.

On Immortal, only continents and islands maps block SS. So speaking about speed between science and culture, is, IMHO, only for Immortal and Deity.

I've seen posts indicating this yes, but it's in the gambit list because if it fails it's not graceful (from posts I've seen) which removes it from consideration.
In any case with SS requiring wide tactics I'm not qualified to post how to do that well.

(I actually did try Sacred Sites with only 4 cities, I won but it was slower than regular cultural victory, it needs wide tactics to work well in addition to having two religious building sets)

Similarly on the science side things like not having enough troops to successfully defend yourself if DOWed upon is also excluded from my considerations on my OP.

Edit: Futurism really should be a consideration in my OP but it's not since I don't know how it compares to both Order and Freedom's tourism boosting tenets. I've also not seen the maths of someone comparing futurism to Freedom's & Orders ongoing percentage bonuses. (Or even Autocracy's other tenet giving tourism bonus to allies)
 
Unlike SV's where you can offset the difficulty by taking advantage of things like trade routes and tech stealing, culture victories will take longer based on the difficulty settings.

I don't see any equivalent way to exploit the AI's culture modifiers and early game advantage in a manner you can with SV.

Pretty sure you'll be able to win culture victories on regular difficulty long before people reach the info era using just futurism - on diety I expect you'll need to back that up with hard built tourism and the internet.

Are you factoring in the ability to militarily remove culture leaders (this seems a pretty solid strat on higher difficulties) and reduce the tourism you'll need for a victory?
 
Warning: incoming wall of text

Using faith for GE and using faith for GS are NOT mutually exculsive nor is completing Tradition, Aesthetics, and Rationalism. They increase separately. There is plenty of faith to use two faith GEs for great wonders providing tourism bonuses and have two faith GSs for even later techs (when your base science rate is much higher.)
It only costs 1 GS (the 3rd one) to first have gone 2 GE due to separate faith counters.

First and foremost, you ignored what I just said about skipping tradition. No tradition, no GEs, that simple. Second, it's not unusual (especially if you're staying small and tall) to have a faith poor civ when you're prioritizing other things (read: you don't get a religion of your own and the AI decides to spam missionaries in your direction, leaving your cities between religions most of the game), meaning you only have enough faith for 1 or 2 great people at key times in the game. Again, much better to spend limited faith in GSs for techs, not GEs for crappy wonders. Even in the event you went tradition and have faith for days there are better uses for 1000 faith than making up for rushing the Globe.

Yes the AI completes Globe before Leaning Tower. That doesn't matter though since the timing for this is to research Printing Press BEFORE the AI does and with enough of a lead to complete Leaning Tower before the AI can build Globe.
And we are having different experiences with the AI, mine takes Astronomy, Banking, and Acoustics before Printing Press.

You're still wasting a GE on a crappy wonder instead of saving it for something useful. Even if the AI treated the Globe like Neuschwanstein it still wouldn't be worth rushing out to complete because it just plain ol' doesn't do much.

Of course I pay attention to the ruins, but it's often the case that the AI founded an city near all those spots and it would require conquest to get them (which isn't peaceful culture victory)

And run into severe happiness problems from skipping Monarchy? (50% reduction in pop based happiness from the capital), and also NOT have the cities be tall enough (from NOT having Free Aquducts from completing Tradition?

That's an issue with your play, nothing more. Believe it or not, as badly as the SP trees are designed the game isn't so unbalanced that you HAVE to take Tradition to win on diety. You can manage growth and happiness without tradition, you just need to plan ahead for it. Liberty is just as viable for a CV as Tradition, perhaps more so as it allows you to REX early and get those attractive city locations the AI would otherwise snag. It's dirt dependent (ie: enough space/luxuries in your neighbourhood to sustain it), but then so is an optimal tradition start.

In addition Tradition carries with it a policy increasing wonder speed.

Zero hoots given. Wonders are optional, and frankly more unreliable than dig sites (it just takes one run-away Incan or Egyptian to ruin the best laid wonder-spamming plans).

It's easy to hand build Uffizi with enough production in the capital.

Dunno what AIs you're getting when you play but Uffizi is rarely easy to hard build at diety in my experience. +see above

I simply cannot see how the extra dig sites you're getting will make up for the theming bonuses, great work slots and free GWAMs you get from spamming culture wonders.
First, the theming bonuses from all those wonders with full Aesthetics is essentially giving you +2 tourism per great work in those wonders. That can really get you a lot of tourism, perhaps upwards of +20 (just a guess, depends on how many wonders you get) and it seems like you'll need quite a lot of dig sites to make up for that.

Not really. A dig site is probably going to be worth 6-8 culture (barring weird late era digs of course), +4 beyond that if you were able to safely go freedom (unreliable, but often possible). If I have 4 more cities than you working 4 more dig sites (conservative estimate might I add, not uncommon to get more) does it really matter that you have the theming bonus for a wonder like the Globe? No, no it does not.

Also consider that some of these wonders give you a "free" GWAM to create another great work, each one of these is itself worth as much as an artifact from a dig site.

Uh, right, OR you could just dig up artifacts and put them in museums. What's your point? The issue with this is that getting free writers isn't very impressive given how easy it is to max out great writing slots if you only have 3-4 cities, and free musicians aren't that great given that the more you pop early the fewer you have later for tours when it actually counts.

Next, wonders also generate culture. With hotels and airports, each point of culture from a wonder generates +1 tourism; with the NVC (which is considerably harder to build if you're building very wide) [editor's note: no it isn't, prioritize hammers and spend them dolla-dolla bills on hotels 2 eras earlier than the internet, build NVC, ta-da] it's 2 tourism per wonder culture. That's something you're also missing out on with wide pay.

Again, no, not really. How many wonders are you going to build in a diety game? Maybe I missed a memo on how Poland can get every wonder in the game using some super science overflow, magical hammer trick, but if we're talking about skipping out on the globe (which I was), that's all of 2 culture for the wonder, and 2 themed writing slots which I'm not missing if I have 4+ amphitheatres more than you for those great works on top of the museums and landmarks. Again, zero hoots given.

Lastly, the extra great work slots mean that you can stock more great works into one city, which you'll put the NVC in. Every great work in that city (probably your cap) will be generating an extra +2 tourism, and a great work in a city with NVC and in a wonder providing theming bonuses will be twice as valuable as one in a normal city with just a hotel and airport.

I really don't think you understand what I wrote. I'm not saying skip every single wonder in the game (although they are ultimately optional, ie: it isn't inherently an instant "game over" if the AI beats you to them) which is what you seem to think I'm saying. I'm still working under the assumption the player is going to try to snag the bigger cultural wonders, and only particularly saying that the Globe is a crap wonder to be ignored.

Lets frame this a different way: lets say I'm playing a rough game where between runaway AIs, too much whiskey, and perhaps the interference of space aliens I only manage to grab the Louvre and Broadway for cultural wonders with great work slots, but have managed to pop down 8 cities in the process. Meanwhile, you're playing a tall 4-city tradition game where you're wonder spamming. First, what wonders with great work slots do you honestly feel at diety you can reliably get most games? It's wonderful to theorycraft and say that with the Great Library, Parthenon, SC, Globe, Uffizi, and SOH on top of the two I already mentioned you'd have x much more tourism but it's more than a little dishonest to pretend you're getting all those wonders no problem in 99% of games. Even if we're going to be generous and say you're getting, say, four of those six does it really matter? If I'm investing more heavily in archaeologists to fill all my museums, and am getting more landmarks it really doesn't matter if you're getting those extra wonders, you're still probably going to end up behind come the internet.
 
Just finished a quick speed game as babylon, I wasn't really micromanaging relationships with AI or taking advantage of gold trading etc, so the game could almost certainly of ended quicker.

With Futurism, I hit radio on turn 121, and won 17 turns later on turn 138, no sacred sites, 3 cities going tradition 5, aesthetics 5.

I had a great writer/artist/musician and scientist ready to pop the turn after i claimed ideology along with a prebuilt globe theatre, uffizi - faith bought a great engineer to pop broadway the turn after which gave me something like 8 GP in 2 turns which gave 2k tourism.

I dare say I could of reached radio a little earlier, but I won the game having just researched refrigeration (last turn i bought a hotel, but it was already won at that point).
 
Not really. A dig site is probably going to be worth 6-8 culture (barring weird late era digs of course), +4 beyond that if you were able to safely go freedom (unreliable, but often possible). If I have 4 more cities than you working 4 more dig sites (conservative estimate might I add, not uncommon to get more) does it really matter that you have the theming bonus for a wonder like the Globe? No, no it does not.

How do you manage to get a 1:1 dig site within city limits to city ratio? The best I ever get within city limits is 1 site for every 2 cities, my long term average across games is 1 site within city limits for every 3 cities.

It's looking like something about the maps you play on is giving you more of them near you than anybody else.
 
Warning: incoming wall of text
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Ok could you please stop being so arrogant and condescending. Nobody even knows who you are, and you're essentially calling joncnunn (probably one of the more respected players on the site) a dunce--at least that's what your tone is implying.

If anything, it's the dig sites that are unreliable--incredibly map-reliant, sometimes I get a ton in my borders, sometimes absolutely none. Sure you might get someone like Egypt in the game from time to time, but unless they're a runaway, and as long as you've got good beakers and decent hammers, the random factors probably won't cheat you out of more than 1 wonder.

I've already covered the tall/wonders vs wide/dig sites in an earlier post, so I don't want to go over it again. But since you didn't respond to it (interesting, because if you're so sure of yourself you should really be able to debunk it without a problem), I'll recap here:

It's not just the theming bonus, it's also the free GWAMs, the culture which can be converted to tourism at a 2:1 ratio, and the ability to stack all your great works in your NVC city.
On the other hand, let's say, like you've said, you've founded 4 extra cities (I'm going to go with the 1 site per 2 cities because that seems more accurate) so you have 2 extra dig sites, each worth 10-11 tourism with Freedom. So 20 tourism or so. On the other hand I have theming bonuses from wonders (I'll estimate 10, although that only takes 2 WWs to get to), culture from wonders (let's say I get 5 of that, that's another 10 tourism), extra great works from the wonders (4 per great work, 6 with NVC, if I only get 2 free GWAMs that'll be around 10 tourism), and +2 tourism for every additional great work I throw in the NVC city (with 2 WWs that's 5-6 slots, another 10+ tourism) so I've already gotten 20 more tourism than you get with 8 city Liberty, and that's with somewhat conservative estimates--even at 1 dig site per city I can still match or exceed your tourism.
I didn't even mention the fact that Tradition can rush wonders with faith, that Liberty has increased tech and policy costs and has a harder time getting NWs like NE, Oxford and NVC.

Moderator Action: Please refrain from personal criticism of other posters -- focus on the points made in a post, not the poster.
 
Einstein was both respected and brilliant - however he wasn't always right...

With regards to the OP, there are several conclusions that are not correct.

There is simply no way any victory condition (except perhaps dom), can keep up with a culture victory on lower difficulty settings. This is because to win a diplo or SV it necessitates that you reach the atomic or information era. Certainly up to emperor, a CV can be attained by the modern era with a non-culture orientated civ (see my babylon post above), which trumps a SV/CV by quite a margin.


OP said
if you don't have a fresh water start then unless playing Indonesia or Austria that science victory is likely to be faster. (This situation would also slow down a science victory, but not by as much
Without adding a whole bunch of caveats, this is simply an untrue statement. I can regularly achieve a CV without fresh water before reaching the info era.

I'd agree that at higher difficulty levels (caveat), CV's become slower and the loss of any %GP generation slows you down, as does playing against a cultural civ (caveat) because this necessitates you need more tourism to overcome their culture to win.

Leaning Tower is normally hand built, and because there are only 2 world wonders + 1 national wonder providing Writing theming bonuses to 3 world wonders +1 national wonder + standard buildings providing Art theming bonuses, using it for the Globe is actually the best option.

This again is not entirely correct and I know you acknowledged futurism above. I think Leaning tower trumps globe theatre if you take futurism because you'll gain far more than 1 great person from the extra 25% spawn rate which will more than make up for the theme bonus. (Futurism grants 250 tourism every time any great person spawns).

I'm not sure about other ideologies, but i'm of the opinion that futurism is the best ideology to take when attempting a tourism victory. Futurism gives you a huge boost to tourism and as it's autocracy, it means you have an easier option of mixing in some domination and wiping out the culture leader (if necessary) which lowers the cap for a tourism victory.

The number of turns you save from Leaning Tower + Globe is massive. If you don't have anything to make it up, then if you miss this it's going to result in science victory being faster.
Again, while I don't 100% disagree it makes victory more difficult, I think this is overstated and misleading/incorrect without adding in some caveats.

(For a similar reason, if you are on a low enough difficulty level to complete Great Library, it will actually shave more turns off a cultural victory than a science one. [It would also be weird if you got beat out to Leaning Tower after successfully building the Great Library])
This is only true when a SV would be quicker than a CV. If a CV is quicker than a SV then every turn the game goes on after a CV would of been attained means the great library is still having an impact (and thus reducing the total turns to a SV).

So in fact, that is the best guideline, if on turn 0 you are on fresh water and see your capital producing a lot of hammers by Printing Press from say lots of fresh water hills and mining luxaries, then it's looking really good for a cultural victory.
If instead you see yourself with massive flood plains start with some luxury type that provides gold instead of hammers and most of the desert is flat then science victory is a better option.

I think the best guideline is that if you are playing on any difficulty besides immortal/deity then a Culture victory will always be faster than a SV. Only on the highest of difficulties will there be any contest between the two.
 
Also i'll add that when playing - think what wonders deny your opponent culture.

i.e. If I can beat an opponent to Parthenon, its worth considering - that's because it gives the owner 6 culture per turn.

What I mean by this is that if I own it, 100 turns later, my route to victory would be 800 tourism less (600 for the culture my opponent never got chance to produce and 200 tourism which I've produced in that time - assuming no theme bonuses etc).

Similarly, other wonders that add high culture are worth denying your opponent if possible.
 
I think the best guideline is that if you are playing on any difficulty besides immortal/deity then a Culture victory will always be faster than a SV. Only on the highest of difficulties will there be any contest between the two.

On King and below I'll concede that point.

For an Emperor start though I can imagine some really bad hammer starts that might make it close. (As in the worst 5% hammer starts of all time; ones likely to provoke the human to rage-restart.)
 
Einstein was both respected and brilliant - however he wasn't always right...

That's true. I was more objecting to the tone in which Manannan took when criticizing the OP's ideas--I found your criticisms to be a lot more constructive and respectful, and considerably more pleasant to read.

Regarding Leaning Tower v Globe - I think joncnunn's point was to build LtoP and then use the free GE to rush Globe, so it's not really a choice between them.

Actually, I'll put my two cents in on Globe since it's been the subject of some debate.
Sure, it only has 2 slots compared to wonders like Uffizi or Broadway. But not only is it a wonder built reasonably early by the AI and thus harder to get--it's also a source of slots and theming bonus for writing, something which is otherwise in short supply.

Consider works of Art. Museums have room for two, while Amphitheaters can only store one work of Writing--there are also more Art wonders than Writing wonders in the game iirc, meaning that Writing slots are harder to come by than Art--and that makes them inherently more valuable, because it might allow you to have more great works in your empire by pure virtue of having slots.

And then there's Music--not only do Musicians come later than both Artists and Writers, they're a lot less used for works, as they're powerful when bulbed late game to catch up with the cultural runaway and at the same time get that little bit of extra influence you need with the other strong Culture civs. That means there's less demand for Music slots than there are for Art or Writing.

So yeah--it seems pretty clear to me that you're not terribly likely to run out of Art or Music slots in your civ, whereas if you're producing a lot of Writers, running out of Writing slots could be a very real problem--which is why building a Writing wonder would *generally* be better than an Art or Music wonder.
 
If you're like me you often want to bulb great writers for culture, or save them up and bulb them, rather than "planting" them by creating great works of writing. Getting Globe makes it easier to justify planting more of the great writers because the theming bonus increases their culture and tourism yield. You can generate great writers and artists at the same pace so it makes sense to prefer the much scarcer slots for great works of writing.

That said, I also usually prefer wide cultural strategies with museum and archeologist spam, I will build the LToP if I can, since it helps a great deal if you have your guilds in three different cities.
 
A couple more ways to increase GWAM output: 1) be Sweden. 2) adopt one of the tier 1 ideology tenets that increase GP.

Personally, starting about mid-industrial, I'm not a big fan of using your own GP to create GW at all, with the one exception of musicians to theme Broadway. I'm good with using the first couple writers to theme Oxford and a couple artists to help theme the Louvre. That builds your base. Future writers and musicians can then get better culture/tourism output by bulbing because you built that base first.
 
That's surprising to me, I'd always plant all my GWs if going for a CV--bulbing them doesn't generate tourism. If I'm not going for a CV, however, I'd agree that bulbing is better because +2 cpt will never make up for the amount of culture you can get from a bulb.
 
settling the GW's boosts the strength of subsequent GM's. Clearly bulb them if you've themed everything you can theme and still have crucial SP's to get, but generally by the time the late game great writers come, you're already blowing your SP's on useless stuff because you've got everything good already. And anyway you only get like 2-3 of them so its not gonna make a big difference either way.
 
That's surprising to me, I'd always plant all my GWs if going for a CV--bulbing them doesn't generate tourism. If I'm not going for a CV, however, I'd agree that bulbing is better because +2 cpt will never make up for the amount of culture you can get from a bulb.

settling the GW's boosts the strength of subsequent GM's. Clearly bulb them if you've themed everything you can theme and still have crucial SP's to get, but generally by the time the late game great writers come, you're already blowing your SP's on useless stuff because you've got everything good already. And anyway you only get like 2-3 of them so its not gonna make a big difference either way.

In the grand scheme of things, the works either need to eventually be placed or traded for theming bonuses or at least be present in the national visitor center to generate enough tourism to matter.
So you definitely want to create a minimum of 4 Writing works (2 for trade purposes for Oxford, 1 for the Amphitheater and 1 for National Epic) The count would increase if you have anything with more slots.
However, it need not be the first X works. Indeed if you spawn a GW that's at the same time 8+ turns into a GA and 8+ turns into hosting the Worlds Fair, by far the best thing you can do with that one is bulb it.

Note that if you do host Worlds Fair though it's quite possible to overshoot the useful social policies.
 
I don't recall ever exhausting useful social policies, but I do hit dry spells where I need two SP's to reach the good stuff from time to time. If you're low CS count I can see you skipping patronage.
 
I don't recall ever exhausting useful social policies, but I do hit dry spells where I need two SP's to reach the good stuff from time to time. If you're low CS count I can see you skipping patronage.

I would include situations where you'd need 2 SP for a good one and there is no possibility that the game will still be going on then in the same situation.

One example because there are many sources of is that after there's no possibility of another natural Golden Age additional happiness policies / tenets can be useless.

Another that is if you go Freedom, only 1 of the level 3 tenets will be useful. (Whichever one directly benefits your victory type will be highly useful while you'll get no use out of the other two.)
 
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