Bananas, improve them or no?

VicRatlhead5199 · Mar 13, 2014

Which way is better unimproved with the jungle science or improved for the extra food? Better one way or another on hills or flat terrain?

It always drives me a little crazy trying to decide.

Mozzington · Mar 13, 2014

I usually dont bother and bag the extra science.

klaskeren · Mar 13, 2014

dont improve

Teproc · Mar 13, 2014

I've never improved a bananas tile.

Winsling · Mar 13, 2014

I'll go against the grain - they're worth improving early in the game for cities that don't have other good sources of food. The science doesn't come until a university is built, so if the additional food will get a citizen or two, you'll come out ahead putting the plantation down.

cpm4001 · Mar 13, 2014

I think you generally don't want to improve banana tiles, the sole exception being if you took the Oral Tradition pantheon and want the extra culture (but that may not offset the lost Science, so it's a toss-up.)

Buccaneer · Mar 13, 2014

Does the extra growth, esp. early in the game and its increase in science outweigh the science you would with universities?

Justice1337 · Mar 13, 2014

I think if they were a little quicker to improve with Workers, or quicker for borders to expand there, or Universities were slower, I would build Plantations more. But as of now, only in Capital, only within the 1st or 2nd ring, and mostly only under Tradition starts will I build a Plantation.

Winsling · Mar 13, 2014

Buccaneer said:
Does the extra growth, esp. early in the game and its increase in science outweigh the science you would with universities?

Universities will give +2 science for leaving them unimproved. Each citizen gives +1, so in a city with a Library and University, each citizen is producing 2 science ((1 + 0.5) * 1.33). Public Schools will benefit the citizen but not the jungle tile, and you can't put a trading post on bananas.

The plantation will add +1 food to the tile, so if that extra food will let you get another citizen and you have the happiness you break even on science. The citizen itself can work a tile or be a specialist, of course.

So, yes, the extra growth can be worth it given:
* You have the happiness
* You have the worker turns
* There aren't enough good tiles without improving the bananas
* The additional +1 food will result in an additional citizen

Winsling · Mar 13, 2014

I should add - the Citizen produces his science no matter what he's doing, while the bananas with jungle need to be worked.

VicRatlhead5199 · Mar 13, 2014

Hehe the community is as divided as I am.

Generally I wait until after fertilizer because then it is +2 food and will feed an extra specialist. I was mostly wondering if it'd be beneficial earlier but it sounds like it's pretty situational. Also that's usually about the time I'm getting ready to delete a worker or two.

Any thoughts on the ones on hills? I assume they should always just stay jungle.

mosphet · Mar 13, 2014

Funny, my friend and I were just having this discussion today. I usually lean towards not improving banana tiles myself, such a nice tile with the science. Now if only I could just build a trading post on it...

joncnunn · Mar 13, 2014

I personally always improve Bananas. It just "feels wrong" for me to leave tiles I'm working unimproved.

However, if near my capital, as a food source, it's on my list that I sometimes plant Great Scientists on. (Like Sheep and non fresh water Wheat)

CraigMak · Mar 13, 2014

If on a regular jungle tile, definitely don't improve to gain the extra science. If on a hill it's nice to chop the jungle and have a food/production tile, not making the plantation at all.

Buccaneer · Mar 13, 2014

Winsling, thank you, exactly the analysis I was looking for.

CraigMak · Mar 14, 2014

Buccaneer said:
Winsling, thank you, exactly the analysis I was looking for.

That was not an analysis, it was common sense..... Analysis would be crunching numbers

Calouste · Mar 14, 2014

Winsling said:
Universities will give +2 science for leaving them unimproved. Each citizen gives +1, so in a city with a Library and University, each citizen is producing 2 science ((1 + 0.5) * 1.33). Public Schools will benefit the citizen but not the jungle tile, and you can't put a trading post on bananas.

The plantation will add +1 food to the tile, so if that extra food will let you get another citizen and you have the happiness you break even on science. The citizen itself can work a tile or be a specialist, of course.

So, yes, the extra growth can be worth it given:
* You have the happiness
* You have the worker turns
* There aren't enough good tiles without improving the bananas
* The additional +1 food will result in an additional citizen

The University multiplier applies to the base yield, so leaving the Bananas unimproved will net you 2.66 science. An additional citizen will yield an extra 1 gold from the city connection though.

Mutineer · Mar 14, 2014

extra grow? but I believe very often improved banana give the same amount of food as unimproved. Usually there are 1 more production.

adwcta · Mar 14, 2014

Assuming you're in a jungle (so there are other jungle tiles), I would improve asap in my capital. If acquired later, in the period between universities and fertilizer, I wouldn't. And, if you get it very late game (within 50 turns of winning), I also wouldn't.

So, the answer depends on your tech path, and your ability to handle extra pop.

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joncnunn · Mar 14, 2014

CraigMak said:
That was not an analysis, it was common sense..... Analysis would be crunching numbers

To actually crunch numbers, you'd need the following scenarios:

1. Any start other than Tradition, but aqueduct built.

2. Above but no Aqueduct present. (Self founded wide?)

3. Tradition start in the capital (so it has the additional capital bonuses)

4. Tradition start but non capital.

It should probably consider other modifiers to growth as well.

Break even science for a Plantation on Bananas after the University is built is having 2 pop points higher than you would have been if you left the tile unimproved.
But for full analysis it would also have to consider the turns before the University is built when leaving it unimproved isn't buying anything.

Bananas, improve them or no?

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