Tourism

peterka · Jul 31, 2013

Hi!

I started my 1st BNW game 4 days ago, and i'm at the industrial ages door (slow, I am!). Let's consider a mod where modern ages are not accessibles...

I found out that the tourism output is 0-15 prior to hotels, information center,etc- is it enough to influence the other civs ? Since they have no ideology then, does tourism cause any harm to the opponents or help us by any mean ?

The main question is: Is a cultural victory attainable before modern time ?
Second question: is tourism worth anything in ancients ages or if a cultural victory is not the chosen winning option ?

Thanks!

Moderator Action: Moved to BNW.
EDIT: And merged with a related thread.

VainoValkea · Jul 31, 2013

Hello Peterka.

The tourism in itself does nothing in particular before ideologies become open, but it accumulates even before that so it's unwise to neglect tourism even before industrial era. If you get your tourism to be popular enough in another culture before they choose their ideology, they feel the pain of all that accumulated tourism if they choose the wrong ideology! Besides, almost every source of tourism also produces culture, which is useful for any victory condition.

As for the first question, the answer is at least in theory yes: you only need to have your tourism to be influential over all other civs' cultures. Ideologies are not a factor as far as victory is concerned (although each ideology offers some abilities that help with reaching such influence).

MerchantCo · Jul 31, 2013

What about great works? I usually have far more than fifteen tourism by the modern era.

Xandinho · Jul 31, 2013

I find it hard to get a cultural victory before the modern era, but tourism is crucial for a cultural victory, it represents your influence on other civilizations, as well as the influence of your ideology

peterka · Jul 31, 2013

In G&K a lot of people complained that the patronage finisher was an hinder to others, not a buff to yourself. I think the same about BNW. It is strange that tourism is not a plus to your own civilization as in real life ($) but only affects other civs.

chazzycat · Jul 31, 2013

early investments in culture, like getting early wonders and filling their slots with the right type of great works, can definitely build up from the early and midgame to have a big effect on the end game. That way, when you reach the ideology stage, you will be pressuring the AI and causing them unhappiness instead of vice versa. If you neglect culture and tourism, even one level of unhappiness can be devastating.

And it is possible to win via culture game before any of the AI even pick an ideology. I did this as France by just basically trying to get as many wonders & theming bonuses as possible (emperor level).

chazzycat · Jul 31, 2013

its pretty easy to see what you have if you flip to the "swap great works" screen, everything will be listed in the dropdown at the top of each section.

not sure if there is a mod, probably not yet.

Furycrab · Jul 31, 2013

Possible? Yes. On higher difficulties, not likely.

If you use religion, get at least 2 Faith buildings (if playing Byzantium 3), get the reformation belief that gives +2 tourism per faith building, then spam the living hell out of faith and cities... You can get 50+ tourism before hotels. On lower difficulties, it might be possible to get to influential? I've gotten to Popular on weak culture civs on Immortal messing with it, before Ideologies, but it kinda swings back a little as the AIs culture builds up.

peterka · Jul 31, 2013

Furycrab said:
+2 tourism per faith building

Yes, but it means you need a wide empire, not tall, as people got used to in g&K for a cultural victory.

VainoValkea · Jul 31, 2013

peterka said:
In G&K a lot of people complained that the patronage finisher was an hinder to others, not a buff to yourself. I think the same about BNW. It is strange that tourism is not a plus to your own civilization as in real life ($) but only affects other civs.

In Civilization, tourism doesn't mean just Europeans with fat purses. It means everything that makes "your" culture seem attractive to "them". Propaganda would be a better name to describe the concept.

By the way, tourism does buff you, and everyone that shares an ideology with you, by increasing the "defensive" pressure towards that ideology.

VainoValkea · Jul 31, 2013

DreadMuffin said:
Speaking of theming bonuses... Is there a mod which optimizes it for you automatically? I don't find it particularly enjoyable nor a very good idea to begin with. If they could arranged them so it was easy to see what you had, maybe, but hovering your mouse over every single great work is just a bother.

I know, the UI is not very pleasing and the swapping of the Great Works feels a lot like busy work. Thankfully there aren't that many of them at a given time, so we won't have to enter too far in the realm of logic puzzles to maximize our theming bonuses.

Furycrab · Jul 31, 2013

peterka said:
Yes, but it means you need a wide empire, not tall, as people got used to in g&K for a cultural victory.

Well ya, and I'm not even that sure how low of a difficulty you would need to go to get a really quick win, but the fact that it scales with difficulty is awesome. Playing tall you'll get more wonders, and a much easier time setting up the final few pieces. (Visitor center and various wonders)

TomKQT · Jul 31, 2013

DreadMuffin said:
Speaking of theming bonuses... Is there a mod which optimizes it for you automatically? I don't find it particularly enjoyable nor a very good idea to begin with. If they could arranged them so it was easy to see what you had, maybe, but hovering your mouse over every single great work is just a bother.

It's something like a minigame

A small puzzle for us.
But yea, it could be improved a lot, for example:
- different icons for art and artefact (maybe just a different color but the same shape, to make it clear that they can be used in the same slots)
- visual differentation between civilizations would be probably impossible, but ages (for example small numbers I, II, III, IV, V etc.) would be handful
- you can see the conditions for bonus only if you have +0, but if you already manage to get the half bonus (+1), you don't get the tooltip - if you don't remember it, you have to empty one slot

Tourism

peterka

Chieftain

VainoValkea

Emperor

MerchantCo

Merchant

Xandinho

Deity

peterka

Chieftain

chazzycat

Deity

chazzycat

Deity

Furycrab

King

peterka

Chieftain

VainoValkea

Emperor

VainoValkea

Emperor

Furycrab

King

TomKQT

Prince

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