Conservative revisionism of WW1

Would you say that in hindsight, the British entry into WWI was a major mistake? I know you support the hypothesis that Britain entered to prevent an escalation of the ethnic tensions in Ireland, but would that still compare in terms of costs to WWI?
The First World War was a major mistake for all participants, full stop.
 
What's depressing to me is that our apparent choice is between "lions lead by donkeys" and "lions lead by lions", or at most some position between the two. The assumption of the common soldiery as "lions" is never brought into question, despite the overbearing mass of evidence suggesting that, at least from 1916, that a lot and perhaps even most of them really didn't want to be there, and that they frequently acted like it.

But in a political culture still deeply invested in the narrative of "people's war" handed down from 1945, it would be unthinkable to question the patriotism of the essentially heroic Tommy, so we are limited to questioning the motives and competence of his generals. And that's just dumb.
You're only allowed to question the soldier's heroism if they're Italian.
 
It's a shame that the incredible amount of attention given to the subject in Britain hasn't translated over to the US very well.

A shame, but not exactly shocking.

First, I doubt very many Americans know diddly about WWI other than it happened,
much less its effect on later events.

Second, if memory serves, the popular view here after the war was that we
had been more or less used and discarded by the British and French, a kind of
view that is not conducive to wanting to remember it.

And last, we were only at war for 13 months and 5 days, with miniscule casualties compared to the other powers.
 
Even the Japanese?
I guess. Unless you're one of the people who died in the attack on Qingdao.
A shame, but not exactly shocking.

First, I doubt very many Americans know diddly about WWI other than it happened,
much less its effect on later events.

Second, if memory serves, the popular view here after the war was that we
had been more or less used and discarded by the British and French, a kind of
view that is not conducive to wanting to remember it.

And last, we were only at war for 13 months and 5 days, with miniscule casualties compared to the other powers.
Sure, it's not shocking. It's just a little sad, is all.

And American casualties were actually...kind of high in the war. Almost 120,000 KIA, 200,000 WIA. Since the US was only involved in heavy fighting for a few months in 1918, the casualty rate per day was pretty astronomical - on a par with the bloodiest months of 1914, and much worse than a comparable statistic for the Second World War. Furthermore, the US was absolutely crucial to the Entente war effort immediately upon entry to the war, albeit in ways that weren't measured by casualties suffered.

Now, obviously, most Americans don't know either of those things. The closest they might come to the latter is "back to back World War champs yeeaaahhhh". So yes, again, it's not surprising to see a near-total lack of attention to the war's centennial here, or to the political football the war has become over in the UK.
 
And American casualties were actually...kind of high in the war. Almost 120,000 KIA, 200,000 WIA. Since the US was only involved in heavy fighting for a few months in 1918, the casualty rate per day was pretty astronomical - on a par with the bloodiest months of 1914, and much worse than a comparable statistic for the Second World War.

It was said by watching European officers that the Americans fought in 1917 like the British and French had fought in 1914. Interestingly, although far fewer Americans were killed in the Great War than in the Civil War, the number of wounded veterans was not all that much higher.
 
that might be because the Americans didn't have the shattering experiences the Europeans had yet were fully informed about the theory before 1914 . That would be partly why Pershing husbanded his forces so carefully to be released in the decisive stroke that would win the war . Since he knew once bloodied the surviving troops could never be induced to repeat the performance . The curse of the commander if you will , since the troops are blood and flesh instead of bytes in computer game .
 
I don't think WW1 as a a futile war, of course I don't think wars as acceptable or a good thing, but one of the main reasons of the war was the arms race and military build-up of German Empire. Their 'weltpolitik' and greed for colonies, dreadnoughts etc. and search for the prestige.

Their whole society and prussian values had all the ugly parts of nationalism in it, it was like a path the whole nation was towards a big showdown, kind of like militaristic Japan.. I think they deserved most of the blame they got.

All the nations had goals in the war and in the making of alliances, but I don't think the sacrifice of british soldiers to put an end to militaristic German empire was futile.. of course nothing should cost the lives of a million men.

Also the mechanics of warfare changed a lot from 1914-1918, it's easy to say now how the attacks should have been made etc. but back them lots of it was new (of course such battles were in some previous, smaller wars like Russo-Japanese war etc.).

Here's a book of a revisionist view of World War One, Mud Blood and Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan, I enjoyed it a lot, although the writer has some biases at least in some other books of his..
http://books.google.fi/books/about/Mud_Blood_and_Poppycock.html?id=Il06AgAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

edit: by the way my nickname Haig isn't some sort of tribute to the generalship of the Great War, I just couldn't think of a nickname and had just read some WW1 stuff... :D
 
I don't think WW1 as a a futile war, of course I don't think wars as acceptable or a good thing, but one of the main reasons of the war was the arms race and military build-up of German Empire. Their 'weltpolitik' and greed for colonies, dreadnoughts etc. and search for the prestige.
What in this isn't also true of Britain, France, Italy and Russia?
 
edit: by the way my nickname Haig isn't some sort of tribute to the generalship of the Great War, I just couldn't think of a nickname and had just read some WW1 stuff... :D

Honest question: Are you Armenian?
 
I guess. Unless you're one of the people who died in the attack on Qingdao.
Totally understand and sympathize with that, but I am seriously interested in what you think of Japan's entry in WWI. We both agree it was not a Good Thing, but was it a Smart Thing? I've gotten really mixed answers on this in every history I've read, which is weird, because none of them seem to be actually arguing with each other.
 
Totally understand and sympathize with that, but I am seriously interested in what you think of Japan's entry in WWI. We both agree it was not a Good Thing, but was it a Smart Thing? I've gotten really mixed answers on this in every history I've read, which is weird, because none of them seem to be actually arguing with each other.
I wrote a post on Katō Takaaki's foreign policy a few years back that kind of doubled as an encomium.

Personally, I believe it depends on a variety of things. If you just consider the seizure of Qingdao and the German Pacific islands, along with the effect of the war on domestic industry, then the war can probably be labeled a success for Japan, especially from the point of view of the IJA's autarkic and aggressive view of foreign policy. But Qingdao had major fallout in China, which resulted in the May Fourth movement (along with the associated Twenty-One Demands, which had an awfully complex legacy), and Japan's attempt at empire-building during the Russian Civil War can't really be termed a success either.

That's kind of wishy-washy, I know. Let me put it this way: if any major belligerent in the Great War could plausibly call it a success, it would be Japan.
 
It's a good post, but it doesn't address what seems to be the most obvious drawback to Japan's policy in 1914: It sunk Japan's alliance with Britain and sunk Japan into diplomatic isolation that eventually turned into pariah status, which, you know, ended really badly.

So what I'm wondering is, how shortly after Japan's entry did it sink Japan's relations with Britain? Was there any hope of Japan achieving it's territorial ambitions AND maintaining the friendly link with Britain? I know we both don't like pointing to an event and saying "From this point on everything was inevitable." But I don't see any way out of Japan's diplomatic isolation once it cheezed off Britain.

And if we count that as an inherent strategic cost for Japan, they traded their standing in the world for a few Pacific possession of negligible economic and military value, which makes them a pretty big loser too. I'm just trying to figure out if considering this diplomatic cost is entirely fair.
 
It's a good post, but it doesn't address what seems to be the most obvious drawback to Japan's policy in 1914: It sunk Japan's alliance with Britain and sunk Japan into diplomatic isolation that eventually turned into pariah status, which, you know, ended really badly.

So what I'm wondering is, how shortly after Japan's entry did it sink Japan's relations with Britain? Was there any hope of Japan achieving it's territorial ambitions AND maintaining the friendly link with Britain? I know we both don't like pointing to an event and saying "From this point on everything was inevitable." But I don't see any way out of Japan's diplomatic isolation once it cheezed off Britain.

And if we count that as an inherent strategic cost for Japan, they traded their standing in the world for a few Pacific possession of negligible economic and military value, which makes them a pretty big loser too. I'm just trying to figure out if considering this diplomatic cost is entirely fair.
I don't think that the Japanese did sink their British alliance immediately. In fact, for the first few years of the war, London was pretty damn solicitous toward Tokyo for reasons that I can't totally understand. Grey was more than willing to allow the Japanese to seize control of islands that the Australians and New Zealanders had set their own sights on, in spite of hysterical xenophobic rants from the Dominions that the Japanese would only use these islands as stepping stones to invade. Britain supported the Twenty-One Demands even before it came out that the final set of those demands, the most obviously damaging to Chinese sovereignty, was never intended to be accepted in the first place.

One can't totally explain this through military exigency. The Admiralty was certainly desperate for Japanese help against Graf Spee's Asiatic Squadron, but the Japanese never really participated in the hunt and British efforts to accommodate Japan lasted long past the Battle of the Falkland Islands.

So I'm not sure that the mere fact of Japan's entry into the war was the sticking point. I think it might have more to do with what Japan did in the final years of the war. It reaped the benefits of belligerency by expanding its empire in Asia and the Pacific, but incurred almost none of the costs because no Japanese participated in the war in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.

In the meantime, Japan continued to play host to exile communities of Indians that attempted to foment revolution in the Subcontinent (with considerable German aid). Successive Japanese governments flirted with an early withdrawal from the war from 1916 onward, conducting not-really-secret negotiations with the Germans through Sweden. None of this stuff really damaged the Entente's cause, but it's certainly understandable that the British increasingly viewed the Japanese as free agents.

And then there's the issue of whether the British themselves would've been interested in keeping an alliance with Japan even if the Japanese stayed neutral in the war, which is something about which I honestly have no idea. How much of abandoning the alliance came out of British dissatisfaction with Japanese policy and how much of it came out of the fact that the alliance's usefulness had run its course?
 
must be America with a potential that could dwarf all alliances and were Americans more attuned to the risks Japan could pose ? And that might have led to a patience with the Japanese while Americans were not yet totally committed .
 
Huh. So you really could write a Bismarck style diplomatic hagiography including conveniently placing the blame for everything on idiotic mistakes of Kato's successors. :p
 
Spoiler :
It's a shame that the incredible amount of attention given to the subject in Britain hasn't translated over to the US very well. The Great War is kind of my pet topic, and I'd love to have an opportunity to talk about it at more length.

On one level, the Furedi piece that Glassfan put up is correct: the debate really didn't start as a historical debate at all. Gove and the other members of the Conservative establishment are openly using the war's outbreak to try to score political points, and their critics are more or less staying within that already-framed debate. Does anybody seriously think that Gove is conversant in, say, the Sonderweg argument, or that he's looked at any of the scholarship on the actions of Sir Edward Grey? Of course not. One might seriously doubt his ability to be conversant in any scholarly discussion at all.

It's not wrong to say, as Furedi does, that the matter of the outbreak of the war is still under serious debate. Broadly speaking, there are two main camps into which historians might fall. The first is a sort of neo-Fischerite group, which clings to the thesis that Fritz Fischer advanced back in the 1960s: that the war was the product of German aggression, a sort of "grab for world power" (Griff nach der Weltmacht), and that other concerns were secondary. The other is decidedly more inchoate, but the historians in it tend to emphasize the roles of other powers in starting the war as no less culpable than Germany, to point out the flaws in Fischer's argument, and to shift the terms of the debate from seeking blame to showing how and why the war happened.

Both schools are represented in recent publications, as well. Max Hastings, a British historian of the Second World War, recently published Catastrophe 1914, which follows Fischer in laying the blame entirely at Germany's feet. On the other side of the discussion, we have historians like Christopher Clark (The Sleepwalkers), Sean McMeekin (The Russian Origins of the First World War; July 1914), and Hew Strachan (The First World War Part I: To Arms) who bring up alternative interpretations.

The problem is that scholarship isn't just about how many people publish in favor of a given interpretation. It's also about whether those interpretations logically follow from the evidence, and whether they make use of all the evidence at a historian's fingertips. Signally, the neo-Fischerite school tends to ignore either the former point or the latter one. Fritz Fischer's studies delved to considerable depth into German politics and policy; his goal was to show that the exigencies of domestic politics brought Germany's leaders to a point at which they considered a war of world conquest a legitimate option. What Fischer, and his epigones, failed and fail to demonstrate is a causative link between German domestic policy and German foreign policy. And what they failed to notice are the far more plausible and demonstrable connections between domestic and foreign policy in Austria-Hungary, Russia, Britain, Serbia, and even France.

People like Gove and even Furedi can plausibly point out that a debate exists. There are certainly historians in this day and age who are willing to focus blame on Germany as the primary, be-all end-all cause of the First World War. But even though these people aren't exactly the Holocaust deniers of the profession (or even the Daniel Goldhagens) their argument still rests on academically unsupportable grounds. This doesn't really matter to the average politician, news reader, or voter. They don't care about things like pre-mobilizations, blank checks, Zustand der drohenden Kriegsgefahr, or the Period Preparatory to War. Those are issues of grave importance to the historical topic, but nobody who hasn't spent a big chunk of her life studying the July Crisis would or should know about them.

Another key reason is the usual lag between scholarship and public perception. Back in the 1960s, all the big-time books that were published were about how Germany started the war, as a sort of push-back against the "flaccid" notion that the whole war was an accident. Barbara Tuchman won a Pulitzer Prize for it; she combined an insistence that statesmen retain control of a given crisis with a clear effort to lay the onus of beginning the war on Germany and Germany (virtually) alone. The Guns of August remains a perennially well-read book. Hell, it was famously recommended by JFK. At the same time, in West Germany, Fischer and his disciples kicked off one of the biggest and most contentious historical debates in history, armed with the rather unfair advantage of claiming that anybody who denied German culpability in the war was basically justifying Hitler - as though 1939 had caused 1914, instead of the other way around. They obviously won the argument. It takes time for scholarship to leak out into everyday discourse like that. You'll still find people defending Tuchman's book as history on this very forum.

"Revisionism" is an awfully loaded word to throw around in popular discourse. When applied to history, it often has extremely negative connotations: we already figured out what this thing meant, and now these historians are trying to change it around and make a new story out of it. That complaint doesn't even make sense, for one thing. As people discover new information, or come up with new ways of looking at the evidence, of course a given "story" should change. You change theories to suit facts, not facts to suit theories. Not every new historical interpretation is a nefarious conspiracy to change the past. This isn't to say that such "conspiracies" don't exist - again, look at the Holocaust deniers. But Holocaust deniers are wrong because they ignore facts and rely on implausible explanations for the ones they don't ignore, not because their interpretation lends itself to uncomfortable implications.

And it's not really like you can claim that the, uh, "anti-Fischerites" have invented some new history that nobody back in the day saw. One of the works most consistently praised by the likes of Clark or McMeekin is Luigi Albertini's three-volume history of the July Crisis. Albertini had barely finished the books when he died in 1941, and they were published in 1943. The series was based on an exhaustive search of the evidence at hand, combined with personal interviews of many of the participants. Although Albertini didn't exactly anticipate something like the aforementioned "Period Preparatory to War", he amassed a vast collection of facts, discarded most of the ones that were obviously misinformation from national archivists, and then explained those facts in a coherent and consistent way without emphasizing blame for any particular party. Even though the book was published during the war in an Axis country, you can't really say that Albertini was trying to exculpate Italy's ally Germany, because Albertini was an ardent anti-fascist who left politics when Mussolini came to power. Of course, Albertini has never been a household name; his book is massive, for Chrissakes, and his English translators certainly didn't do him any favors.

Gove's goal, obviously, is to draw a pat lesson from the war and make a play for British national sentiment by remembering a time when the country came together to defend itself against a menace to civilization. If the war's causes were highly complex and difficult to explain, then that all gets much murkier, obviously. The likes of Hastings offer an easy way out: it was Germany's fault, and since they wanted to rule the world any number of casualties would be justifiable in trying to stop them.

The whole "donkeys leading lions" thing is a separate, albeit related, issue. I think that the scholarship there is, if anything, even more unequivocal than it is over the causes of the war. But it also has a significantly smaller footprint in popular perception. And this post is way too long and meandering already.

Good post. Im less of a cynic than you though. I think that conservative polticians genuinely believe in what they are saying, rather than looking to score short term political points.

I also agree that historical revisionism is a charged debate. One should never underestimate its potential to cause conflict within communities. You mention holocaust deniers, but they are a relatively fringe group of people. I think the best example in relation to this is the Historikerstreit in germany during the 60s and 70s. For those who dont know, it was basically an argument between historians about how the Nazi past should be incorporated in the German identity, with two completely polarised views on the left and right. The right wanted to relativise the German past by placing the Nazi crimes into an historical context, and the left viewed this attempt as a vehicle to try and white wash the crimes of the past (because the method of relativisation was to associate the Ghetto's with the Gulags, and even suggest that the Gulag was a precursor to the concentration camps).
 
While we are at it - this whole idea of honoring those who died is IMO wrong, as it is just a paraphrase for glorifying death and killing from what I can see. Sure we can mourn those who gave their life, but honoring them? War is at best a tragic necessity, nothing to be proud of. Be proud of the good this may have done, but not the way it was done.

Also a question: I read a main reason for the British to want to continue WWI until victory was so they could burden someone else with the huge war dept.
How much truth is there to that?

I disagree with Dach here. Britain was exhausted by the war and wanted a way out, as did nearly every other allied government (especially those who had suffered more than Britain, which certainly included France). Reparation payments simply mirrored those imposed on Russia in the treaty of Brest Litovsk. An armistice had to come with terms, and reparation payments seemed like a logical thing to impose. The general view is that America wanted a lean peace, France a harsh peace, Britain something in between, and Italy was ignored.

There was a school of thought in America though that wanted to continue the war. General John J Pershing wrote about it in some length, arguing that an armistice would only deepen and lengthen the war and would forego the allies the chance of establishing a permanent peace. Indeed, this train of thought was one that would get a greater currency once we get into the second world war, because the second WW was fought expressly to completely subjugate Germany. Nothing less than a full surrender and occupation would suffice. Some in the military, and I think quite rightly, predicted that an armistice would enable the German army to claim that it was never beaten and had never lost the war. This was one of the most powerful myths to spring up in the post war period, seen most clearly in the stab in the back myth. The fallout of which resulted in the deaths of millions of people.
 
I don't think WW1 as a a futile war, of course I don't think wars as acceptable or a good thing, but one of the main reasons of the war was the arms race and military build-up of German Empire. Their 'weltpolitik' and greed for colonies, dreadnoughts etc. and search for the prestige.

Their whole society and prussian values had all the ugly parts of nationalism in it, it was like a path the whole nation was towards a big showdown, kind of like militaristic Japan.. I think they deserved most of the blame they got.

All the nations had goals in the war and in the making of alliances, but I don't think the sacrifice of british soldiers to put an end to militaristic German empire was futile.. of course nothing should cost the lives of a million men.

Also the mechanics of warfare changed a lot from 1914-1918, it's easy to say now how the attacks should have been made etc. but back them lots of it was new (of course such battles were in some previous, smaller wars like Russo-Japanese war etc.).

Here's a book of a revisionist view of World War One, Mud Blood and Poppycock by Gordon Corrigan, I enjoyed it a lot, although the writer has some biases at least in some other books of his..
http://books.google.fi/books/about/Mud_Blood_and_Poppycock.html?id=Il06AgAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

edit: by the way my nickname Haig isn't some sort of tribute to the generalship of the Great War, I just couldn't think of a nickname and had just read some WW1 stuff... :D

Disagree here. Germany was behaving no differently to Britain and France. Both had colonies, both had large navies, both sought to marginalise Germany. I guess it was one of the problems of the day. Economies weren’t globalised like they are today. I doubt we could have a world war now (thank god), because the effects would be so catastrophic for the world economy. All we can do is beat up on minor countries of no significant value who do something we don’t like (Iraq, Afghanistan etc).

German nationalism and militarism is an interesting topic. I think its interesting that you cite those as one of the reasons for going to war. If that’s one of the reasons for going to war, then the net effect is that it made Germany 100% more nationalist and 100% more militarist than it was in 1914. Seems as though the reasons for going to war had the opposite effect from the original intention yes?
 
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