So Tradition vs Liberty

I find that with all the changes all of the four Ancient SP trees have their merits. But most importantly: completing them isn't as necessary as it was before. I find myself dip into various trees now as fits my strategy. I use all four of them...

pilot00 said:

Cant sacrifice my growth, thereby my production and science science output for a settler and a worker. The improvements though are a Godsend, especially in epic which I play, they just cant compete to the growth bonuses. The capital always turns monstrous and the aqueducts simply rule (especially if you dont have the tech yet )

Liberty will help you set up a bit faster but in the long run you will limp behind especially in the science race.

Given the AIs passive behavior I altered my plans to hard build my settlers now and I feel a lot more sure with tradition now.

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As a MP player, I can't agree with this more.

I love building wide empires, but I am always running into science/population difficulties towards the end game. I just can't compete with Tradition-based empires, it's very frustrating.

I don't use Liberty for a quick advantage in the beginning, I use it for the long-haul, but it just doesn't give you the kind of bonuses that Tradition does. It needs a buff.

Liberty has always been a little weird, with most of it's usefulness being due to tempo. I hope Firaxis reenvisions it for the next installment. And Piety is really rather weird and gimmicky imo, but oh, well..

I always choose tradition first, regardless of what victory type I am and regardless of whether I'm going for tall or wide. I play marathon and 3 extra culture in your capital is like having a free policy early on. After choosing just tradition then I decide if I continue tradition, or do liberty or piety or hnor depending on other factors.

mauporte said:

I play marathon and 3 extra culture in your capital is like having a free policy early on.

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This is true only if you were going to take the Tradition opener anyways. In those circumstances, the slight delay of filling out your tree of choice is worth the extra tiles from the accelerated border expand.

If you weren't going to take the Tradition opener anyways, then that +3 CPT will never pay for itself.

I actually did an analysis of this here: http://redd.it/39kcf9
I made a video to compare in a "real world" scenario: https://youtu.be/E3GOc30CnUY
Of which, this was the end result: http://i.imgur.com/SjNBNxK.jpg

That said, if you were to take Tradition opener first and then realized the map you were playing was suited to Liberty, the downside to having already opened Tradition is mostly offset by the 3 CPT and accelerated border growth.

rodrigoq said:

Just steal your neighbors workers. faster than getting free ones from policies, and cheaper. I stick with tradition, the bonuses are always with you throughout the game, whereas liberty is just a few 1 shot bonuses.

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The worker stealing cheese is starting to smell really bad and it doesn't result in great flavor either.

I never go to war with city states or AI's just to grab a worker from them.

Honestly the single worst thing that cripples Liberty is when you plant a lot of cities quickly you get this negative diplomatic effect on the nearby AIs

'They think you're building new cities too aggressively'

That's enough to make all your neighbors hate you and even multiple AIs to declare war on you. It's makes fast expansion very risky. The penalty often takes ages to disappear to so if you want to keep expanding you'll almost inevitably have to go to war at some point.

Dont always depend on worker stealing because its like having a priviledge but its not a right to steal so always make your own workers still. However, if you still have that wide open opportunity to be able to steal a worker without receiving that much damage or preventing unit loss then yeah why not take a worker or two but without over doing it of course.