Deity Challenge - Honorable Germany

Honor opener is so prohibitive...

I'm on T170 with a mere 250 beakers and only 5 poorly grown cities. Progression west blocked by bad tiles and because she had allied 2 CSs. I'm walking around with 7 3 range double attack XBs but can't progress worth as AIs are hitting rifles. I'm still 8% behind lead on tech and don't have nearly enough beakers or pop to catch up before some AI does CV/SV.

I think I'm throwing the towel on this try anyway. I didn't exploit honor nearly enough in the early game and I'd probably have to wait until rocket artillery/AA to attempt to wipe the map, praying that no AI finishes before then.
 
I don't have the scrambled continents DLC so don't know what the problem is. I just have all the standard DLC from G&K (all civs plus ancient wonders).

Spoiler :
I took a city from France but had to back off again and let him re-take it after the Celts declared and attacked from the west. This put me at war with everyone except for Babylon and Persia (although Indonesia and Poland have not sent a single troop my way). The Celts sent weak units so I had no problem fending them off and ended up getting some gold and gpt for peace. Meanwhile my eastern border fought off waves of musketeers (which are difficult to kill in jungle with rough terrain bonuses). My crossbows all have logistics and range and a few have march. After I wear down his troops I will retake Lyons and citadel bomb my way to Paris through the rough terrain and Great Wall.

I'm getting behind in science. Turn 150 and only have a uni in my capital - still building them in other cities. Not even making 150 bpt yet. Hopefully I won't get hopelessly far behind. No time for making anything but units as I also have to contend with barbs spawning to the south and random CS units that are allied with my enemies. Only played about 30 turns today due to all the warring.
 
2 city NC, CB - Xbows.

Spoiler :


SP: honor right side - left side - commerce, going for mercantilism first

tech: pot - archery - mining - etc - philosophy - delay construction for a while - iron working - beeline to machinary - civil service - education

Hard built settler very early (started before t20). two pop ruins helped a lot (1->2 was not that helpful, but 3->4 was great).

Finished NC around t70 and upgraded 6-7 CBs and went for america. I bribed him to DoW France before so I could kill him easily. I stacked XPs and made sure I did not lose any units. t94, washington with Statue of Zeus and stonehenge falls.



Boston had 2 unique lux and had a good position to attack the next target. Took it and built roads towards babylon. Meanwhile, bribed him to attack France and Persia. DoFed with France but 3 civs denounced me.

Xbows up around t105 and went for bab. t117 cap falls (petra and +2gold from stone wonder). I took 2nd city as well but just sold it to France (happiness problem).





Went for Persia next. France backstabbed me - after persia I will deal with him. t129 Persia cap (angkor wat, CI, and one more wonder) falls.



France got 8 wonders, including GL, GW, and Norte Dame. I think I can finish France with pre-renaissance units and take one more civ with cannons, and take remaining two with artys.

 
that last map pack is a pain !! how many challenge / posted save i'll be unable to open...arg will not buy that one so i will not play this game against .
:sadface:
 
You don't need the Scrambled Continents for this one. I don't have this DLC and can open the save.
Might be some players are missing the Explorers map pack that i got as part of CiV gold.
 
casualplayer said:
10+ cleared Barb camps - net result: 1 Brute. Ragequit, Turn 150.

Spoiler :
I sent my Warrior the sweet spot direction to the West. Woo hoo, 2 ruins! 1st one 20 Culture! I'm going to get my 1st SP on Turn 7! Honor....woo hoo...:( Next one is upgrade to Spearman though, which is sweet. Swoop in on another Ruin Turn 20, thank goodness I can choose Camp Food pantheon. Nope, rough map for me.

I built/bought two Settlers and dropped them right around Turn 60, one on Stable Acres to the West and one on the River/Hill/Mountain/Wine/Ivory/Other stuff you would get if your borders expanded at a Traditional pace but Honorman loses to his neighbors spot. Gold was never a concern, because of so much Ivory, but Food was hard found.

Washington covets my lands right up until Turn 50 when he asks for a DoF. Yeah, sure. Then he wants help roughing up Nebuchadnezzar. Yeah, sure. Hey, neat, France wants to pick a fight with Neb too. Walk, walk, walk, walk, surround Dur-Kurisomething, double-peace deal and Germany is sitting there 1000 klicks from home looking stupid with no allies against the tech and point leader. Awesome.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think your start was pretty much spot on. Just the key issue is that:

A) You didn't do much conquest in the early phases of the game, which honour is relatively relient on. This early aggression would have probably allowed more cities into your empire so that the science difference isnt' too drastic.

B) You got involved in a war that was disadvantagious, While Nebu was a threat, he was a threat that was too far distanced to deal with immediately, hence you ended up squandering your millitry pressence by marching them against a threat too far away. Nipo and Washington had directed your attention away from their lands.

Probably the better option would have been to prevoke Washington early on, then France. Considering their caps would have been good city locations, build them up and burn the rest.
 
@glory7 Your game is very similar to mine except that I would have completely eliminated America if I had taken the city that is in Boston's location on your map. I stole the settler that was going for the Philadelphia site in your game. Therefore in my game it will be more difficult to get to Babylon and I was planning to go through France first, which may not be the wisest choice seeing as they have the Great Wall. I will see in the next 10-20 turns if I can just citadel bomb my way to Paris. I probably should have just eliminated America in order to set up an attack to the north.
 
HNBiscuit said:
Personally, I think your start was pretty much spot on. Just the key issue is that:

A) You didn't do much conquest in the early phases of the game, which honour is relatively relient on. This early aggression would have probably allowed more cities into your empire so that the science difference isnt' too drastic.

B) You got involved in a war that was disadvantagious, While Nebu was a threat, he was a threat that was too far distanced to deal with immediately, hence you ended up squandering your millitry pressence by marching them against a threat too far away. Nipo and Washington had directed your attention away from their lands.

Probably the better option would have been to prevoke Washington early on, then France. Considering their caps would have been good city locations, build them up and burn the rest.
Click to expand...

My start was fine for a Machinery-over-Education beeline. I finished Honor, and 3-city National College, on Turn 91. Education Turn 121, but my slowest University build was 6 Turns so I was rolling soon afterwards. I could easily get to Dynamite before the rest of the world and Arty/Cavalry my way to victory.

I just got exasperated trying to play new Germany and ending up playing vanilla Civ. Kill Archer in camp so CB will fill then clear camp to get CB, nope, 25 Gold no unit for you. Over and over again. 67% chance to join, I think not!

I really liked the map though so I'll probably give it another shot.
 
casualplayer said:
My start was fine for a Machinery-over-Education beeline. I finished Honor, and 3-city National College, on Turn 91. Education Turn 121, but my slowest University build was 6 Turns so I was rolling soon afterwards. I could easily get to Dynamite before the rest of the world and Arty/Cavalry my way to victory.

I just got exasperated trying to play new Germany and ending up playing vanilla Civ. Kill Archer in camp so CB will fill then clear camp to get CB, nope, 25 Gold no unit for you. Over and over again. 67% chance to join, I think not!

I really liked the map though so I'll probably give it another shot.
Click to expand...

Yeah, their barb joining ability is cute, but sometimes I find it heavily unreliable.

Still, I guess short of being best friends with a millitent state, it's the closest any Civ gets to free units.

Problem is I guess is that we don't see much of germanys unique abilities, until the late game or not at all.
 
Resipsa said:
May I ask why you chose not to settle Berlin on the hill adjacent to both a river and mountain?
Click to expand...

I settled the same place he did because I wanted to get away from the tundra and there will be no significant benefit from settling the mountain or river. Either I win before I need observatories, or I lose spectacularly, and sending TR's from the cap for gold is a waste because of raging barbs.
 
joshua43214 said:
I settled the same place he did because I wanted to get away from the tundra and there will be no significant benefit from settling the mountain or river. Either I win before I need observatories, or I lose spectacularly, and sending TR's from the cap for gold is a waste because of raging barbs.
Click to expand...

I was mainly wondering about the non-mountain settlement but since the game is mostly over by the time you get obs then it makes sense.
 
I'm glad I settled the mountain with my capital because my game is not going to end quickly. France is a tough nut to crack. I played an additional 25 or so turns (around turn 175 now) and spent most of it just fighting off wave upon wave of musketeers and knights trying to take Lyons back. I was able to plant 2 citadels toward Paris but couldn't hold the far one and it was pillaged quickly. A pike placed in the closer one next to Lyons, with a knight with Medic 2 behind it, has worked well to hold Lyons, and I have been trying to place as many roads and chop as many jungles down as possible for better ranged access. Musketeers with rough terrain bonus and double Cover are very difficult to kill, even with highly promoted crossbows (most now have Logistics, Range, March, and Cover), so it has been a real slog when he keeps sending waves of 8 or so my way.

Industrialization (gatlings!) is not going to come soon enough in my mind. I wish I could steal more techs with spies but it has been slow going. My science is still only around 150 bpt with unis up and running specialists. The AI continue to be complete jerks. I was finally able to make peace with both Poland (who is now pseudo-friendly) and Indonesia, who gave me a few gpt even though I never saw a single unit of theirs. But recently was double DoWed again by Washington (who still only has the one city in between me and Babylon) and Babylon. Plus they managed to embargo me in the WC. I may have to take Washington's last city for access to Babylon and this will make my diplo situation even worse (although maybe can't get much worse). Of course Babylon was able to completely eliminate Persia and not suffer diplo consequences for it. Both Babylon and France have CS allies around me so I am fighting off those stupid units as well. I have a couple of CS allies to the west blocking off enemy troop access from that side at least. Barb camps continue to spawn in the south and have provided a steady stream of mostly pikes from the UA.

I'm not sure if I can ultimately pull this off as I am now 16% behind Babylon in tech. I need to break France soon. Maybe I should be going for public schools but I went Chemistry instead and at least have started to get some muskets of my own. I'm hoping I can make my push toward Paris with some muskets in the lead (and a third citadel) followed by all my xbows and a few cannons.
 
I'm avoiding reading the posts so I don't pick up spoilers, but I'm going to try this map.

Personally, however, I think "raging barbs" turns Deity into Immortal+ for Honor, and even more so for Germany. It gets you through the Honor tree sooo much faster. That being said, Honor is nerfed enough that this should still be a good challenge.

I'm also looking forward to playing with the Hanse, etc.

But, bleh, not fond of that start position. The Tradition player in me is so tempted to move next to the mountain for an observatory/hills capital. The experienced Honor player in me is torn between settling on the gems and settling one tile east to get the wheat and deer in the first tier.

Settling on gems averages out to about 200g early in my experience, because you get 2g/turn about 30 turns prior to a) having a worker, and b) finishing the mine, and you can sell the resource about 20 turns earlier on average... so 20x7 + 30x2 = 200g early, which buys an archer, and almost buys a shrine..., which on Deity with Honor is more valuable than you'd think, because a culture pantheon really helps get to the finisher. In this game, it'll probably go towards a shrine because I expect I'll be getting most of my archers for free. ;-)

But, Honor is growth limited, both in terms of expos and food, and having forest deer + plains wheat in the first tier means growing to size 3 significantly faster without sacrificing too much production. This is especially true because border expansion is limited until you get the +2 culture/garrison... the culture/kill is not local culture AFAIK and doesn't expand borders... so it could be a while before you get that deer.

On the other hand, settling on plains between hills is not great for defense. :-(

Ultimately, since I won't be going for Trapping until after Construction, and I don't care about Water Mill/Hydro Dam in an Honor game, I think I'll just settle on the gems unless moving the warrior reveals something game-changing.
 
joshua43214 said:
I settled the same place he did because I wanted to get away from the tundra and there will be no significant benefit from settling the mountain or river. Either I win before I need observatories, or I lose spectacularly, and sending TR's from the cap for gold is a waste because of raging barbs.
Click to expand...

this same thought applies to tundra, since you either win soon or lose it there will never be the need for the tiles eaten by tundra...
 
Tabarnak said:
Interesting challenge. I must say that if we are surrounded by close AIs the barbs might be cleaned up fasdetr than we think and reduce the effectiveness of Germany. But we also might get more workers. So i guess that a no self built workers and lot of early units is necessarily a strong opening.

Settling on the gem seems attractive. Fast 2nd city+granary to send a food caravan to cap can help too.
Click to expand...

I've never once found the need to build a worker when opening Honor. ;-)

The bigger issue is gpt limiting the amount of workers you can afford to keep around with all your military units. This is certainly less of a problem for Germany though!
 
I don't think I've played with Germany since they introduced the Hand-Axe... it's a weird unit.

Range 1. EW. Replacement for a Chariot Archer, upgrades to a Knight?? Hah. So weird. This is both good and bad. Good for Germany when they eventually want Panzers. Bad because unlike a Horseman, the ranged promotions are wasted when they upgrade to a Knight. I guess you just stick to the promotions that DO translate...

I have to admit the finer points of using Barbarian units are new to me. Should be interesting. ;-)

It doesn't have as much synergy with the way I'd normally progress through Honor, sadly. I won't be upgrading Hand-Axes or Brutes until I get Chivalry and Iron-Working, which I would normally delay.... I would usually go Construction->Civil Service and upgrade spearmen and archers. And if I have a mostly barbarian army I don't need barracks until much later. I guess it's still useful for upgrading barbarian archers though.

I guess I'll just use the brutes and hand-axes as shock troops and not worry about them dying.
 
Resipsa said:
May I ask why you chose not to settle Berlin on the hill adjacent to both a river and mountain?
Click to expand...

He settled on the gem tile. So much powerful to settle on a lux mine right away, especially when you know that you are going for a dom. game. Losing a river and a mountain? Who cares, really?

Settling on a lux tile has a double synergy. You better maximize gold/hammers in the early turns, in almost any type of games if the overall land(2nd, 3rd ring) can afford enough stuff for your capital. This also allow you to sell the luxury asap and enhance even more the gpt rate.
 
casualplayer said:
10+ cleared Barb camps - net result: 1 Brute. Ragequit, Turn 150.

Spoiler :
I sent my Warrior the sweet spot direction to the West. Woo hoo, 2 ruins! 1st one 20 Culture! I'm going to get my 1st SP on Turn 7! Honor....woo hoo...:( Next one is upgrade to Spearman though, which is sweet. Swoop in on another Ruin Turn 20, thank goodness I can choose Camp Food pantheon. Nope, rough map for me.

I built/bought two Settlers and dropped them right around Turn 60, one on Stable Acres to the West and one on the River/Hill/Mountain/Wine/Ivory/Other stuff you would get if your borders expanded at a Traditional pace but Honorman loses to his neighbors spot. Gold was never a concern, because of so much Ivory, but Food was hard found.

Washington covets my lands right up until Turn 50 when he asks for a DoF. Yeah, sure. Then he wants help roughing up Nebuchadnezzar. Yeah, sure. Hey, neat, France wants to pick a fight with Neb too. Walk, walk, walk, walk, surround Dur-Kurisomething, double-peace deal and Germany is sitting there 1000 klicks from home looking stupid with no allies against the tech and point leader. Awesome.
Click to expand...

Just curious... about the ragequit, I think I might know why you got so unlucky. Bismarck's ability does not function like the reformation belief, where adjacency to a camp gives you the last unit to spawn from that camp. (If I recall)

With Bismarck, capturing an empty camp gives you nothing. So you can't get barbarian units with archers. You have to kill a unit in the camp as you take it to get the conversion, which means attacking with melee. Not sure if that was the problem, but on my end, most camps I attack give me units. /shrug

Spoiler :


Raging barbs is ridiculous. And to boot, on T15: 2 culture ruins, 1 Cultural CS to be allied, and barbs galore. I should finish Honor by t60. :p

My biggest dilemma in this game is whether or not to attack Washington. I'm debating rush-buying a caravan and trading science with him ASAP, and then switching to an internal or CS trade route and attacking. This would get me to Construction almost twice as fast... but then I lose all the benefits of attacking him early. I haven't met any other civ yet, so if I attack him right now there should be no warmonger hate built up when I finally capture Washington. If I only capture that city, I should be able to avoid mass DoW until I capture my second capital. If I attack him on T60 I'll have warmonger hate before I even capture a city, which could push me over the edge... But, I really want that science. I could easily end up with *double* science until T60 from trade routes with New York and Washington.

I may just do that, as there are enough barb camps to occupy all my units. But my instinct says I should start harrassing him ASAP, killing units so that when I get construction he has no defenses left. Plus, my units will stop gaining XP at 30 otherwise. Argh, I hate post-patch warring. :p

Ok, I've made up my mind. I'm going to stay peaceful and farm him for Trade Route science until t60, to encourage him to build Wonders. If I attack early, he'll build units instead. These days, for a war campaign to succeed, it really helps if your first city capture nets you a wonder.

Also, I'm very tempted by this map to attempt to maintain Ally status with Riga and Bogota, and go Education->Chivalry->Banking, so I can build Hanse and get a 10% production bonus in my cities. Those CS are located such that the Trade Routes should be easy to defend. 10% production bonus ain't shabby, and I'll need the money. Until I get the Hanse up I'll probably rely on internal food trade routes unless I get a TR quest from one of them. Riga will help my growth, Bogota will help my culture, both will help my happiness, and given that I'll have lots of culture and probably be slow to enter the renaissance, I may actually get Scholasticism before I can open Rationalism.

I should have enough horsemen and hand-axes to upgrade 4 knights... unfortunately they're not great for city capture, but I may be defending DoWs at that point anyway.


FYI, here are the upgrade numbers with Honor:
archer->composite bow: 50g
spearman->pikeman: 50g
composite bow->crossbow: 65g
horseman->knight: 65g

The UI says 33% off upgrades, but I think that's a lie. 33% of 80 is 26.7, so the upgrade should be 53 at least. It looks like it's rounding down to the nearest 5g. Which would make sense with composite bows: 2/3 of 100 is at least 66, and it's charging 65. Minor point but it saves 10g for every 3 archers you upgrade. :p

The combo of getting units for free from barb camps with cheap upgrades is serious win.

Spoiler :
This will make it much easier to maintain Ally status with Riga and Bogota.
 
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