triple defensive pact

Genghis-cautious +8/-6
Mao friendly +16/-2
Napoleon cautious +8/-4


Mao has defPact with Napoleon
Mao has defPact with Genghis
these 3 guys have been friends since the beginning(sharing Mao's Hindu)


Mao is on spaceRace lead(5casings, 3thrusters)
95 turns left
monarch


im playing as Mansa, cottage-spammed(univSuff, FSpeech, Emancip, StateProp, FReligion)
built 3gorges, have factories in all cities
stopped teching awhile ago, and focusing on tank production only
1 tank every 3 turns(produce 1-turn, rush, tank pops out)
14 of 17 cities producing tanks
= 14 tanks every 3 turns

idk how to quantify my military lead



i have the eastern side(41%) of the continent, the other 3 are on the west


i think i will have to settle for domination(41% of 64% landArea), but be precise with which cities to take, and in which order

any suggestions?

1) im considering building scotlandYard for Spies to scout which of their cities have the big stacks, but im worried about losing turns for tank production

2) or a simple open border and walk through their cities(i never opened borders to anyone since the beginning) -- ignore sabotaging space parts, and focus on tank production

3)Im worried about warWeariness. I have already built jails, and will switch to policeState when i declare, but i still have some concerns:
since i will initiate the war, and they have defPacts, my will my warWeariness triple? and if so, how will the tripled warWeariness spread? 3x unhappiness in a city? or 1-1-1 unhappiness in 3 different cities?

4)not sure on who to declare on(does it even matter?) and which cities to take(for domination), and in what order to take those cities


edit: no "save-try-reload" please

If you have Jails, Mt. Rushmoore and run PS, you get 0 .

You imho should use the Great Spy for City revolts during war, and maybe to sabotage SS parts.

Not opening borders for the whole game is a big mistake, that costed you tons of because you denied yourself foreign TRs. You don't have to be afraid of open borders, they have only advantages and no disadvantages. AI doesn't spy on you or anything with them.

If you only got 100T left, you should try to advance your early game. With good early game, winning before T200 is very possible. That's a far better and easier way, than trying to salvage a far advanced game in which a lot already went wrong. People at S&T will gladly help you, if you post a game there and ask for advice every 20T.

Mao is getting pretty close to space. Are the others equally advanced? You probably have a huge army by now, so should be able to wage war well. Check out the victory screen and see if anybody else are close to culture. That's usually a concern when you get this far into the game. If Mao is the biggest concern due to his space programme, I'd probably opt to attack him first here. If all three get in, as I guess they will, you'll have your hands full, but if you move all your units to both flanks of the inland sea, you should be able to push through if you have a huge army. You may want some siege too though.

i got impatient waiting for a response after posting here, so i just went for it after a quick 5 minute planning (civ4 has much less activity now compared to 8 years ago i guess thats to be expected)


i decided to stick to uniSuffrage, as the ability to gold-rush the tanks seemed to be more benefitial to me than policeState
--> warWeariness problem solved with theatres and gradual culture slider increase, topping out at 100% a few turns before killing genghis and mao

i kept on produce-rushing tanks, until mao completed elevator at 85 turns remaining, which gave me the go-signal for war
at 85 turns remaining, i had 13k gold in reserve before I declared... useful for when i had to increase cultureSlider for happiness; and gold-rush tanks
at 85 turns remaining, i had close to +66% military strength over the highest rival






------COMBAT
north
i placed my single-turn units(cannons, infantry, old-grenadiers) up north, to hold back chinese offense
i chose north for slow offense since france's presence meant unexpected chinese/mongolian attack from french borders

home defense
i placed 20~ tanks on tiwanaku, in case of coastal invasion. railroad + tank's 2movement meant i had flexible defense

south
i placed 75~ tanks(75~) south to quickly take mongolian cities.
i chose south for quick offense, since a french city's presence (chinook) might squeeze my reinforcements out with it's culturalBorder(once mongolian-moscow and chinese-hangzhou were taken)
also the mongolian cities in the southern corridor meant i could just push my tanks through, without fear of chinese/mongolian retaliation from the flanks



------RESULTS
everything went according to plan:
my northern forces held back chinese offense, after which, my northern forces slowly pushed towards chinese territory to claim cities
my forces at yaroslavl(close proximity to moscow) destroyed genghis' big stack at moscow in 1 turn with the help of 4 catapults
my tanks pushed through the southern corridor, taking mongolian cities quickly

a few turns after declaring, mongolian forces made a coastal landing at Ollantyanbo, which i was ready for. The Tank's blitzkrieg+2movement destroyed the coastal invasion forces in 1 turn


things that didnt go according to plan:
napoleon's culturalBorder blocked my path(reinforcements to chinese/mongolian forces) much slower than i anticipated, so i was able to capture more cities than i expected
so i was happy about that




70 turns left
genghis destroyed(15 turns after declaring)

69 turns left
mao destroyed(16 turns after declaring)
genghis' and mao's destruction alleviated warWeariness pressure on a few cities(just in time when i only had 3k gold left --already at 100% cultureSlider)

61 turns left
domination win, 24 turns after declaring
i didnt bother warring with napoleon, as I had to leave. I just enter-spammed to get through the turns quickly



------lessons learned in this game
* don't move far-off units in enemy territory, if you can capture nearby cities on that turn
capturing cities first, means their culturalBorder collapses, meaning my far-off units don't have to suffer movement penalty of going through enemy territory, thus speeding up my invasion

* somehow, leaders get a "you declared war on our friend" even at 20-25 turns into the game(when i killed saladin with quechaRush)

* tech-bribery works great

* mercantilism isn't so bad, but still not worth rushing to, it seems

* declare war earlier than you think you should. this prevents crazy stuff like triple-defensive Pacts from happening again

Pangaea said:

Mao is getting pretty close to space. Are the others equally advanced? You probably have a huge army by now, so should be able to wage war well. Check out the victory screen and see if anybody else are close to culture. That's usually a concern when you get this far into the game. If Mao is the biggest concern due to his space programme, I'd probably opt to attack him first here. If all three get in, as I guess they will, you'll have your hands full, but if you move all your units to both flanks of the inland sea, you should be able to push through if you have a huge army. You may want some siege too though.

Click to expand...

cultural victory didn't seem a threat, i think the highest was mao, at 20k-20k-10k at normal speed

yeah, i pushed north-south, but didnt go dual-pronged attack, i was wary of surprise stacks from my flanks, so i waited up north, while my southern tanks secured the TIGHT southern corridor first

Seraiel said:

If you have Jails, Mt. Rushmoore and run PS, you get 0 .

You imho should use the Great Spy for City revolts during war, and maybe to sabotage SS parts.

Not opening borders for the whole game is a big mistake, that costed you tons of because you denied yourself foreign TRs. You don't have to be afraid of open borders, they have only advantages and no disadvantages. AI doesn't spy on you or anything with them.

If you only got 100T left, you should try to advance your early game. With good early game, winning before T200 is very possible. That's a far better and easier way, than trying to salvage a far advanced game in which a lot already went wrong. People at S&T will gladly help you, if you post a game there and ask for advice every 20T.

Click to expand...

thanks, i didnt think of mtRushmore(i dont get that tech) but that seems very helpful
i'll try that on my future late games

city revolts? is that for warlords/bts? i dont think spies have that function in vanilla

my closed border policy was set in stone since the beginning, to emulate merantilism early(just to see it's effects for a longer period, since waiting for banking then switching to stateProp won't give me a clear picture)

also late game was set in stone since the beginning(although i admit, i didnt expect the triple-defensivePact). I wanted to compare frederick's tanks to a FIN-cottage spammed regular tank

Seraiel said:

If you have Jails, Mt. Rushmoore and run PS, you get 0

Click to expand...

I don't think that's true. I remember reading somewhere that one of those modifiers works multiplicative instead of additive like the other two, so in reality you still get some war weariness as all modifiers together amount in truth to either -75% (if Police State is the multiplicative modifier that is -50% absolute war weariness from Jails and Rushmore and the other 50% get cut in half by PS) or ~-83% (if one of the other two is multiplicative, so -75% from PS and Jail/Rushmore and the remaining 25% gets shaved off by 25% from Rushmore/Jail).

Of course it could be that this just applies to Vanilla, or maybe it was never right in the first place, but I did read something like this somwhere.

Mt. Rushmoore + Jails + Police State definately eliminate War Weariness completely in BtS, I tested that thoroughly in my last 3 Conquest / Time games.

And at the OP: Yes, spy revolts are BtS. If you don't got it, get it, you'll never regret that.

Seraiel said:

Mt. Rushmoore + Jails + Police State definately eliminate War Weariness completely in BtS, I tested that thoroughly in my last 3 Conquest / Time games.

Click to expand...

EDIT: Nevermind, Seraiel is right. I may have WW showing up on my diplo relations, but that makes sense either way, because Jail is a local, not global, effect. The city I put the Jail into has no "War! What is it good for!" unhappiness despite over 2000 WW showing in the diplo relations summary you get hovering over a leader. I just gave myself a bunch of nukes and bombed a guy well-beyond what was "necessary."

You had 200WW, but did you have any from that in your cities?

Ofc, WW is created to i. e. give you unhappy citizens if you changed the Civic, but the effects of WW should be completely negated, which is what I ment.

X-post edit on previous post. got to say though, I think I've read on his site in a dozen different places that they add multiplicatively (ie ps eliminates 50%, rushomore eliminates 25% of the remaiining 50%, and jail elimantes 25% of the remaining 37.5%, for ~28% but that is straight up wrong. It just adds).

In Seraiel trust you must ^^ .

Seraiel you now letting your games go long enough to build Mt. Rushmore?

Yes trust Seraiel (when it comes to waring anyway)[ain't you supposed to be the angel of silence? not the early axe rush?]

I play vanilla and in my first game of CivIV (appearing shortly in S&T, its a real Muddle) After I built Mt.Rushmore and then Jails in a lot of my larger cities. While I was a Police State (Yay Hapshetsut!) I had no unhappy faces in the cities where I had Built Slave Camps ahem Jail Cells.

Testhero said:

Seraiel you now letting your games go long enough to build Mt. Rushmore?

Yes trust Seraiel (when it comes to waring anyway)[ain't you supposed to be the angel of silence? not the early axe rush?]

Click to expand...

Hehe, thx ^^

I had to play a few time games recently, because there is no other way to get 100 EQM points when needing to play an advanced start for Rock of Ages. It was very nice to finally again be allowed to play a game that goes past Cavalries, though needing to sabotage 3 AIs SS-parts for the 2nd half of the game actually wasn't so great.

I btw. Don't know from where you got that “Angel of silence“ . When I chose my name, it was intended that it sounds / reads like an Angel's name, but I chose a unique name that was / is not associated with anything. Now I've googled again and saw, that one lol-player coppied it (that bastard, if he at least had skill ), but apart from that no associations.

Atm. I'm the Angel without PC, though that's probably gonna change in the beginning of next week. Maybe today, if I'm lucky .