Ukrainian Crisis thread 1.2

Many people do not perceive it as a feature film. Instead, some people in Russia call director as a traitor. Other people in the West elevate Zvyagintsev to the level of someone who dared to speak against Putin's Russia. What I see is a good contemporary piece from Russian cinema, with some Biblical motives in place. It is not clear from the movie who murdered Elena, which does not make it easy to cast movie into simply good protagonist -- bad state machine (Leviathan) terms.

It's a drama film, not documentary.

Yes officially Leviathan is based on America, Just like Road side picnic is officially based on America but every one knows that it is really about the Ukraine Soviet Union. :mischief: :lol: It is safer for your best directors and writers to say such things officially. After reading up on it (because ending was very complex and deep) many in Russia are saying the film as being very accurate of life inside modern Russia. Though its message and ending are universal and could easily reflect life in modern rural America

Andrey Zvyagintsev is very good Russian film maker, I hope he dosnt get four bullets to back of the head. The west is always welcome Russia best and most intelligent.

Speaking of Road side picnic.
Your Russians, so good making sad film, such is Russian life and fate.


Link to video.
 
Thank's. It indeed went viral, though in my translation it probably lost a lot of its original strength. So it's much more understandable to Russian-speakers.

The whole thing, Donbass, Crimea, Ukraine, currently unites Russian people enormously. Recently, I had a chance to talk to my former classmates and other different people in my hometown, many of whom I haven't seen for decades. We are different people, we can disagree on things like Putin, USA and EU politics, Russian internal issues - but when someone starts to talk about Ukraine war, you don't even have to ask people's opinion. We all felt we understand each other without words.
 
It is safer for your best directors and writers to say such things officially.

FF, you have a problem. Because Australia is so far away from Russia, and you don't do enough research you end up confusing things very very often. Every movie has its own history, in this particular case Zvyagintsev indeed got inspired by a real American story, but he decided to adapt it to Russia, because he is from Russia, he worries about Russia, and in his official opinion bad things are happening in Russia. It would be safer for him to get inspired by Russian story, but mask it as an American, you do understand simple logic, don't you? :rolleyes:

Another thing is your "your". By 'your" you mean your Russian directors? But you can clearly see that I am Armenian. Can you process that difference? Ukrainians and Russians are much, much closer in every single way than Russians and Armenians. Armenians had a war with Azerbaijan, and after our victory, 20 years later 75% of Azeri arms purchases are happening through Russia. On the other hand relations between Armenia and Ukraine have deflated since Armenia recognized the illegal "referendum" in Crimea and its subsequent annexation by Russia, and Ukraine has withdrawn its ambassador to Armenia for consultations.

I come from the East and live in the West and do have easier time than you to look at this conflict without taking sides, or rather trying to take the side of the truth in case by case basis. What is happening in Donetsk is a tragedy of immense proportions. But you don't treat that for what it is. You fail to realize that life is not black and white. And I cannot even say -- you are not much better than Russian users here in your one sided approach. And you know why? Simply because they speak Russian, and while biased, do understand the situation much better.

Here is a simple test for you. I just found this random outrageous video of rebels interrogating Ukrainian soldier. Try to watch it even with an interpreter and figure out the context of what is happening.


Link to video.
 
Thank's. It indeed went viral, though in my translation it probably lost a lot of its original strength. So it's much more understandable to Russian-speakers.

The whole thing, Donbass, Crimea, Ukraine, currently unites Russian people enormously. Recently, I had a chance to talk to my former classmates and other different people in my hometown, many of whom I haven't seen for decades. We are different people, we can disagree on things like Putin, USA and EU politics, Russian internal issues - but when someone starts to talk about Ukraine war, you don't even have to ask people's opinion. We all felt we understand each other without words.

For now, Like Americans whom had 80% support for Idiot war in Iraq and another idiot war in Afghanistan. The war was popular and had universal support until all the lies started to unravel and the real cost in lives, money began to be counted. The US tried to cover up the cost with more lies and propaganda this just meant when the truth came out support for the war eroded even faster.

The Americans have terms for this "Blowback" or "unintended consequences".

What did Russia expect when it tried to assassinate the Ukrainian President ?
Do you think all the Ethnic Russians wanted to live under Russian government ?

I was only somewhat joking when I said Stalin time bombs, I fear that all Russian has gained is its neighbors hostility and ethnic tensions will build up to Ethnic cleansing.
 
FF, you have a problem. you do understand simple logic, don't you? :rolleyes:

Of course, it would be even safer to make film praising Putin in Russia today. Perhaps it would be best to use Andrei Zvyagintsev own words. I wish him and the Russian people well, it is sad state of affairs in Russia today.

I wonder though, are Russians truly within the bubble or dose everyone know inside what is really happening as so many have said and has been widely reported in the western media but the public knowledge is never said out loud ? Has it truly been distorted and twisted by our western media for political reasons ?

Leviathan director Andrei Zvyagintsev: ‘Living in Russia is like being in a minefield’

Yes, Leviathan shows ordinary Russians crushed beneath a fiendishly corrupt bureaucracy. But it was inspired by a case in the US, he said, and is intended as a universal parable.

But as soon as we start to speak, it’s as if a dam has broken. Carefully measured allegory is swapped for blunt straight-talking. He pauses only once in 90 minutes – to take a phone call from a friend whose wife is ill. He uses an iPhone 4, which, by the standards of the Moscow beau monde, is the equivalent of packing an old Nokia brick.

He speaks quietly, with consideration – and unmistakable anger.

“It’s like being in a minefield, this is the feeling you live with here. It’s very hard to build any kind of prospects – in life, in your profession, in your career – if you are not plugged in to the values of the system. It’s a stupid construction of society, and unfortunately the eternal curse of our territory. The ideas of the rule of law, of equal rights are hardly discussed here. There is discussion in society, but it’s pointless. I have a feeling of the absolute futility of pretending to the right to have a say in any situation. I’ve turned 50 and I’ve never voted in my life. Because I’m absolutely certain that in our system it’s a completely pointless step.”

“The ideas at the heart of it are relevant everywhere,” he smiles. “But of course it’s a film about Russia. It’s a very Russian film.”

quintessentially Russian. And lest we be in any doubt that this is the real, tangible Russia rather than some imaginary, parallel Russia, there are references to Riot and a portrait of Vladimir Putin hangs on the wall of the corrupt mayor’s office.

That picture was there when the crew arrived; they shot in a real government building in a remote northern backwater. Nothing at all needed to be confected or changed. “We live in a feudal system when everything is in the hands of one person, and everyone else is in a vertical of subordination,” says Zvyagintsev, explaining the power structure of modern Russia that defines the film, where kissing upwards and kicking downwards are the main modes of operation.

“We are reawakening the soul of the Russian people,” intones the film’s imperious bishop, voice shaking with righteous anger as he reels off a list of enemies who would undermine Russia. It is a voice that could come from the daily evening news bulletins on state-controlled television. This bishop, with his gold and mahogany office, contrasts with a local bedraggled priest who gives the distraught Nikolai an impromptu sermon on the tests that God might have in store. Zvyagintsev describes himself as secular, but a believer. When he was 28, he says, he decided he wanted to be christened, only to find out that his grandparents had done this secretly when he was two years old.

Leviathan’s portrayal of a venal, organised church, along with a sickeningly corrupt political system and a sloshed, atomised society, could not be further from the Russia that the authorities want to portray.

Zvyagintsev swims resolutely against the tide. One remark by Russia’s culture minister, Vladimir Medinsky, who, earlier this year, said openly that he did not like Leviathan, seems especially to irritate.

“He said: ‘Let all the flowers grow, but we will only water the ones we like.’ After these words he should have been fired, because this is a direct violation of the constitution, a direct violation of human expression. You cannot impose rules on art. Everybody should be equal. Government help, without which art cannot function, should be equally spread between all participants.”

“A lot of people think that you have to abide by the theory of small actions; that you should do whatever you can from your position. My position is that of a cinema director. I’m not politically active. But I can’t not react to what is happening around me.”

http://www.theguardian.com/film/201...ndrei-zvyagintsev-russia-oscar-contender-film
 
If it has no interest in escalation, it won't send weapons there. Let's see if this is the case.

Let's apply that to Russia now, shall we? Sending weapons into Ukraine? Check. Sending military into Ukraine? Check. So the escalation scenario hinges on Russia, which now expects the West not to do the same.

Of equal interest:

Kiev's debt includes $3 billion lent by Russia in 2010 to the previous Moscow-backed government. An IMF rule could threaten continuation of the Ukraine aid program. It bars the Fund from lending to a country that has defaulted on a loan in the "official" sector, that is, from a state or public institution. "We have a non-tolerance policy," IMF spokesman William Murray told reporters at a regularly scheduled news conference.

Ukraine's debt to Russia should be considered state debt, he added. "If I'm not mistaken, the $3 billion Eurobond comes from the Russian sovereign wealth fund, so it's official debt," he said.

If Russia refuses to renegotiate Ukraine's debt by the end of the year, Ukraine would be forced into default, putting the IMF in a delicate situation.

So here we have a second scenario which hinges on Russia. Let's see how both scenarios play out, shall we?
 
I come from the East and live in the West and do have easier time than you to look at this conflict without taking sides, or rather trying to take the side of the truth in case by case basis. What is happening in Donetsk is a tragedy of immense proportions. But you don't treat that for what it is. You fail to realize that life is not black and white. And I cannot even say -- you are not much better than Russian users here in your one sided approach. And you know why? Simply because they speak Russian, and while biased, do understand the situation much better.
No you don't.

I can find very few actually disputing the situation in Donbass is a tragedy regardless of where you approach it from.

The question is why it's turned into a tragedy like this? It all hinges on what the proposed answer is.

Put it like this, is there any other conflict you have knowledge of that you think is as fair an anaology to the Donbass situation? (Setting aside for the moment that no perfect analogies exist.) The answers to that kind of question tends to indicate what kind of principles the different parties think are involved in the conflict.

And, to return to why you don't see things more clearly, you won't know what this situation looks like until Russia decide YOU are on the wrong side of it. Russia instigated the conflict in the Donbass. Russia has declared itself a hostile to the EU, US, NATO, or just "the west" in general. To the extent you're not implicated through any of those you're not involved.

But that does not implicitly mean you see things more clearly. It just means the stakes are different, and lower. However, if THAT — the lower the stakes then supposedly the more "objectively disinterested" — is supposed to be a clincher, then the Russian perspective can be dismissed out of hand, since no nation here is more deeply emboiled on ALL levels than Russia, with the exception of Ukraine. But then of course, Ukraine is only embroiled in a conflict with Russia because Russia unleashed one on it.
 
And, to return to why you don't see things more clearly, you won't know what this situation looks like until Russia decide YOU are on the wrong side of it. Russia instigated the conflict in the Donbass. Russia has declared itself a hostile to the EU, US, NATO, or just "the west" in general. To the extent you're not implicated through any of those you're not involved.
His point is that he is more capable of impartial judgement of the situation - not only because of "being disinterested", but also because he's more knowledgeable about both conflicting parties. And this is probably true. I also spent years living in a Western country, but I'm Russian and not pretending that I'm not taking sides here.
 
His point is that he is more capable of impartial judgement of the situation - not only because of "being disinterested", but also because he's more knowledgeable about both conflicting parties. And this is probably true. I also spent years living in a Western country, but I'm Russian and not pretending that I'm not taking sides here.
So he can claim of course. As such it's a claim on the level of: "Trust me!"

It's still a matter of Russia going looking for enemies, and predictably then finding them.
 
You Russians do have good film makers, I liked Leviathan 2014 Russian documentary
Leviathan is a good and quality movie, so it is not a "documentary". Realism (in art sense) (or even "hyperrealism") is a distinctive feature or Russian culture: take Dostoevsky, Tolstoy or Chekhov for example -- while there were and are other currents in Russian art, works in realism venue are usually get wider and long lasting recognition.
 
So he can claim of course. As such it's a claim on the level of: "Trust me!"
I think the claim is hardly disputable.
He obviously knows more about Russian culture, mindset and things like that, than you or most of other Westerners here.
And unlike you (or me), he is not taking sides.

But I can't say I support such "balanced" position.
 
FF, you have a problem. Because Australia is so far away from Russia, and you don't do enough research you end up confusing things very very often. Every movie has its own history, in this particular case Zvyagintsev indeed got inspired by a real American story, but he decided to adapt it to Russia, because he is from Russia, he worries about Russia, and in his official opinion bad things are happening in Russia. It would be safer for him to get inspired by Russian story, but mask it as an American, you do understand simple logic, don't you? :rolleyes:

Another thing is your "your". By 'your" you mean your Russian directors? But you can clearly see that I am Armenian. Can you process that difference? Ukrainians and Russians are much, much closer in every single way than Russians and Armenians. Armenians had a war with Azerbaijan, and after our victory, 20 years later 75% of Azeri arms purchases are happening through Russia. On the other hand relations between Armenia and Ukraine have deflated since Armenia recognized the illegal "referendum" in Crimea and its subsequent annexation by Russia, and Ukraine has withdrawn its ambassador to Armenia for consultations.

I come from the East and live in the West and do have easier time than you to look at this conflict without taking sides, or rather trying to take the side of the truth in case by case basis. What is happening in Donetsk is a tragedy of immense proportions. But you don't treat that for what it is. You fail to realize that life is not black and white. And I cannot even say -- you are not much better than Russian users here in your one sided approach. And you know why? Simply because they speak Russian, and while biased, do understand the situation much better.

Here is a simple test for you. I just found this random outrageous video of rebels interrogating Ukrainian soldier. Try to watch it even with an interpreter and figure out the context of what is happening.

FF seems like he's just here for trolling, he's actually quite adequate in other threads.

In any case, I also live in the West, but I come directly from the city where for the past 8-9 months several dozen artillery shells have been falling in random places every day. I actually had the same "balanced" position as you did, but over time I found much better sources that made me understand that while the rebels are FAR from perfect, their good outweighs the bad, while the opposite is true for Ukraine.
A lot of money and time was used to make them look worse than they actually are.

The rebels overall have a much better track record in prisoner keeping than Ukraine, something that even a Ukrainian involved in prisoner transfers admits. There are also many rumors about torture from specific nazi batallions, although so far I haven't seen rock solid proof. One member of one such batallion did admit it, though (I posted it a long while back in one of the threads, I'll try to find it again later).
 
So he can claim of course. As such it's a claim on the level of: "Trust me!"

It's still a matter of Russia going looking for enemies, and predictably then finding them.

This is exactly what I don't like about this whole discussion. The moment you take sides -- discussion is over, the other side is all wrong and one only brings forth arguments benefiting his side.

Nothing is ever so simple in geopolitics. If you take an uninformed observer, say, from Papua New Guinea and give him pure facts -- he will rule clearly that in 2014 Russia was acting re-actively, instead of going to look for enemies. I hope you are not going to suggest some Russian CIA-type covert operation, resulting in ousting the legitimate president, so that Russia then could go ahead to annex Crimea and give "go ahead" to the rebellion in the East regions.

Having said that, I would like to turn to red-elk and his compatriots and ask them to comment the video I have posted. How is it possible to claim being Ukrainian and not knowing where major city Uzhhorod is?

 
Russia and Argentina discuss possible supplying of Argentina with Su-24M supersonic strike aircraft. Talks about supplying fighter aircraft and coastal navy ships are also reported. If successful, this may create serious burden on British military budget, due to necessity to maintain increased defense force in Falkland Islands region - or push Britain for political settling of conflict over disputed islands.
http://www.janes.com/article/47293/uk-reviews-falklands-defence-as-russia-offers-su-24s-to-argentina
 
Having said that, I would like to turn to red-elk and his compatriots and ask them to comment the video I have posted. How is it possible to claim being Ukrainian and not knowing where major city Uzhhorod is?
It doesn't seem too extraordinary to me - a military man doesn't know where a city with 100-200k population is located. I can only add that judging by his parlance, interrogator was definitely born either in Eastern Ukraine or Southern Russia. Kharkov-Donetsk-Lugansk-Kuban region.
 
This is exactly what I don't like about this whole discussion. The moment you take sides -- discussion is over, the other side is all wrong and one only brings forth arguments benefiting his side.

Nothing is ever so simple in geopolitics. If you take an uninformed observer, say, from Papua New Guinea and give him pure facts -- he will rule clearly that in 2014 Russia was acting re-actively, instead of going to look for enemies. I hope you are not going to suggest some Russian CIA-type covert operation, resulting in ousting the legitimate president, so that Russia then could go ahead to annex Crimea and give "go ahead" to the rebellion in the East regions.

Having said that, I would like to turn to red-elk and his compatriots and ask them to comment the video I have posted. How is it possible to claim being Ukrainian and not knowing where major city Uzhhorod is?


Uzhgorod is a small city literally on the opposite side of the biggest entirely European state. I myself have only a very generic knowledge of the locations of West Ukrainian cities, and I consider myself to be pretty good in geography.
 
This is exactly what I don't like about this whole discussion. The moment you take sides -- discussion is over, the other side is all wrong and one only brings forth arguments benefiting his side.

Nothing is ever so simple in geopolitics. If you take an uninformed observer, say, from Papua New Guinea and give him pure facts -- he will rule clearly that in 2014 Russia was acting re-actively, instead of going to look for enemies. I hope you are not going to suggest some Russian CIA-type covert operation, resulting in ousting the legitimate president, so that Russia then could go ahead to annex Crimea and give "go ahead" to the rebellion in the East regions.

Having said that, I would like to turn to red-elk and his compatriots and ask them to comment the video I have posted. How is it possible to claim being Ukrainian and not knowing where major city Uzhhorod is?

Russia isn't offering anyone else anything but the joys of subjection to it at this juncture. There's a disturbing discrepency between Russian geopolitical ambition — which for obvious historical reasons seems near boundless — and it's actual ability, which is just enough to destabilise its neighbours for no useful purpose perceptible to anyone, except it maintains Russia in a very relative (modest) control. At the price of subverting a number of otherwise excellent principles for how states might live peacably. And relatively wrecking neighbours of course.

If this is a geopolitial contest, the Russian gamble is that the parties it is looking to contest (US, NATO, EU) are morally deficient, and so Russian spiritual qualities (supposed) will win out — which in practical terms translates as Russian threats to possibly behave in a number of outrageous and dangerous ways, as so many potential chicken-races with "the west", where it is hoped this "west" will swerve at the last moment — essentially since Russia is presenting an image of itself as crazy-desperate (except everyone is mostly too polite to point it out).

The post-Soviet settlment between Russia as the successor state and NATO in particular was reached on the implicit assumption that Russia would one the one hand join the western economic and political model, including the international system of politics — not challenge it — and Russia could be assumed to do well out of this in economic and societal terms. At the same time it was implicitly assumed that Russia would by default retain a hegemonic position within a largely Russophone world.

What we've now got is a Russia confronting the first part, while alienating increasingly large parts of the Russophone world, i.e. being unable to maintain itself as a hegemon, and as an Ersatz attempting to simply strong-arm others into submission.

None of that was necessary or inevitable, and most of it is due to unforced errors under Putin's mandate. Beginning with what an awful idea it is to make a modern nation dependent on energy export as the dominant model for funding itself.

The Russians certainly might feel hard done by. But then Russia is in quitye bad nick. It's just that outsiders haven't screwed Russia up. Russians did that. What the westerners have mostly been doing is to for the longest time fervently hope Russia would right itself, under its own speed, but it hasn't. That realisation has come VERY late, especially in Europe. (Which has downrigth resoreted to wishiful thinking re Putin for several years.) But now it's inevitable.

Russian weakness then becomes a problem because it triggers the attempted exodus of former Soviet states westwards. The west can't by fiat stop that. Russia can only accept it, or try to fight it at this juncture. In Ukraine it has decided to try to fight it, if in a weirdly clandestine fashion (growing increasingly thin). As Russia does so, it futher hammers home the lesson that Russa has nothing to offer. It's to the point where this seemingly rock-solid Russophone world is starting to look slightly loose around the edges even, indicating the Russian soft-power loss yes to come might be every bit as dramatic as its struggle to assert its remaning hard power.
 
If this is a geopolitial contest, the Russian gamble is that the parties it is looking to contest (US, NATO, EU) are morally deficient, and so Russian spiritual qualities (supposed) will win out
You are joking, right?
Or you seriously think that Russia adopted speeches of Orthodox priests as state geopolitical policy - and plans to defeat NATO with spirituality? :)
 
You are joking, right?
Or you seriously think that Russia adopted speeches of Orthodox priests as its geopolitical policy - and plans to defeat NATO with spirituality? :)
You don't need to go further than Putin. Which under the circumstances is as good an indication as anyone is going to get where Russia might be headed with all this.
 
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