Concerns for BNW

kaspergm · May 20, 2013

I agree, I don't worry too much about Exploration. Yes, it is situational, but that's not a problem. If you don't have a lot of coastal cities, you were not supposed to take this policy tree. That being said, I'm not too happy about those special artifacts that require you to take this tree just to get them, as that seems completely unrelated to the others. In that light, it might have been better if these artifacts were uncovered by a different method. With regards to Piety, I don't think they compare - the problem with Piety is not that it is bad (it is situational, yes, but not bad), the problem with Piety is that it locks you out of Rationalism, and as Rationalism is the biggest no-brainer in the game, that is a huge problem - but the problem lies with Rationalism, not with Piety.

My biggest concern is with the new features linked to Happiness, particularly the whole ideology and revolution (whatever that implies) feature. As others have said, this will not work properly - except as a whip to punish the human player - when AI has (practically) infinite happiness, so I really hope they've tweaked the AI happiness bonuses.

Eagle Pursuit · May 20, 2013

They probably aren't special artifacts, just an additional set of them that only Explorers can find.

The QC · May 20, 2013

Ikael said:
Er, actually yes, many important popullation centers were built around good fishing areas (Toronto, Oslo), natural safe harbors for ships (Athens, Carthage, Shangai) and of course, strategical straights and chokepoints on naval routes (Istambul, Malacca, Cape Town). Civilization does not reflect any of that: water is something that you avoid like the plage, needing only a minimum contact to the sea to make it "work", while in the real world having a huge natural bay to accomodate a great naval influx (think coast tiles) has paid a huge role when determining where to build a city.

I'm not sure you are right about coastal cities being something to avoid in BNW. Of course, we'll see how the balance works only when we play, but the way it has been presented, naval trade will be very powerful and will make these cities worthwhile (even though they will not be working most of the sea tiles).

My point was that this reflects real life. Cities like Amsterdam, Istanbul, Cape Town, Athens, Carthage, Venice did not grow hugely important via fishing, but rather via trading.

Of course, the in-game mechanism is still much simpler than in real life, but I would say that it is somewhat closer.

(And note: I'm not saying that's a good thing. It's just an academic point

. I do wish water tiles were a bit more useful.)

Calouste · May 20, 2013

kaspergm said:
I agree, I don't worry too much about Exploration. Yes, it is situational, but that's not a problem. If you don't have a lot of coastal cities, you were not supposed to take this policy tree. That being said, I'm not too happy about those special artifacts that require you to take this tree just to get them, as that seems completely unrelated to the others. In that light, it might have been better if these artifacts were uncovered by a different method. With regards to Piety, I don't think they compare - the problem with Piety is not that it is bad (it is situational, yes, but not bad), the problem with Piety is that it locks you out of Rationalism, and as Rationalism is the biggest no-brainer in the game, that is a huge problem - but the problem lies with Rationalism, not with Piety.

My biggest concern is with the new features linked to Happiness, particularly the whole ideology and revolution (whatever that implies) feature. As others have said, this will not work properly - except as a whip to punish the human player - when AI has (practically) infinite happiness, so I really hope they've tweaked the AI happiness bonuses.

I think you can still discover the hidden artifacts if you don't finish the Exploration tree, it will just be slower. Maybe you can set your Archeologists to "Explore" to look for them, and they discover them when they are in the right tile.

stealth_nsk · May 20, 2013

Calouste said:
I think you can still discover the hidden artifacts if you don't finish the Exploration tree, it will just be slower. Maybe you can set your Archeologists to "Explore" to look for them, and they discover them when they are in the right tile.

This would make Exploration finisher useless.

Just remember the artifacts aren't required for culture play. You could fill their slots with great works of art. So, actually the bonus allows first civs getting these finishers to get some tourism without actually playing too culturally.

Calouste · May 20, 2013

stealth_nsk said:
This would make Exploration finisher useless.

Just remember the artifacts aren't required for culture play. You could fill their slots with great works of art. So, actually the bonus allows first civs getting these finishers to get some tourism without actually playing too culturally.

That's like saying the Tradition opener is currently useless because you can build an Amphitheater. Or that the Liberty finisher is useless because you can get Great People anyway. Being able to get to an Archeological site before someone digs it up is rather important.

stealth_nsk · May 20, 2013

Calouste said:
That's like saying the Tradition opener is currently useless because you can build an Amphitheater. Or that the Liberty finisher is useless because you can get Great People anyway. Being able to get to an Archeological site before someone digs it up is rather important.

Absolutely different things. Number of hidden artifacts is limited, so if it would be possible to found them without the exploration finisher, even the first player to open it could get nothing.

maxp · May 21, 2013

Did anyone else notice there are six level two tennets to choose from in each ideology but only four slots in the screenshot for ideology tenets:

Spoiler :

Both tier one and three have the right number of slots. It may be that the icon disappears at some point, or perhaps its impossible to get all tennets.

Calouste · May 21, 2013

stealth_nsk said:
Absolutely different things. Number of hidden artifacts is limited, so if it would be possible to found them without the exploration finisher, even the first player to open it could get nothing.

Exploration opens in Medieval, and Archeology is an Industrial tech, so it is well possible to finish the Exploration tree before you get Archeology. And it also depends how long it take for an Archeologist to find a hidden site. I would say if they can only "discover" something on the tile they finished their turn on, it would be quite balanced.

Calouste · May 21, 2013

maxp said:
Did anyone else notice there are six level two tennets to choose from in each ideology but only four slots in the screenshot for ideology tenets:

Spoiler :

Both tier one and three have the right number of slots. It may be that the icon disappears at some point, or perhaps its impossible to get all tennets.

Yes, I noticed that, and that matches with what was reported earlier. Also keep in mind that the tier-3 tenets are strictly tied into one specific victory condition, so you rarely have use for more than one of those, and that tier-3 tenets give you a large boost to that specific victory target, so you probably won't get many more tenets after that. It's unlikely that you will ever get them all.

stealth_nsk · May 21, 2013

Calouste said:
Exploration opens in Medieval, and Archeology is an Industrial tech, so it is well possible to finish the Exploration tree before you get Archeology. And it also depends how long it take for an Archeologist to find a hidden site. I would say if they can only "discover" something on the tile they finished their turn on, it would be quite balanced.

In this case it will be almost useless as standard map has more than 4000 hexes with huge having more than 10000.

I really don't think its needed. The hidden artifacts are designed as exploration tree bonus. Why would we need another way to access them?

boghog · May 21, 2013

stealth_nsk said:
The hidden artifacts are designed as exploration tree bonus. Why would we need another way to access them?

The other way to access them is of course to buy or steal them off your neighbour.

stealth_nsk · May 21, 2013

boghog said:
The other way to access them is of course to buy or steal them off your neighbour.

Only after they are hidden no more

boghog · May 21, 2013

I wonder if an archaeologist from a civ which has finished the exploration tree can just excavate in a neighbour's lands who has no clue about the treasures hiding there - or will it still create diplomatic tension?

theadder · May 21, 2013

The AI is the big concern.

The AI is already bad; it's possible to hold off vast armies with a few units with the right strategy. Also the tendency for endless pointless wars.

I'm hoping that they have used the new systems to give the AI reasons to keep the peace, rather than letting it get more confused.

seancolorado · May 21, 2013

theadder said:
The AI is the big concern.

The AI is already bad; it's possible to hold off vast armies with a few units with the right strategy. Also the tendency for endless pointless wars.

I'm hoping that they have used the new systems to give the AI reasons to keep the peace, rather than letting it get more confused.

This. I once fought an army of Elizabeth Longbowman and Swordsman that was at least three times the size of mine using literally just upgraded Maori Warrior's and city bombardment - and a single crossbowman inside the city. AI is silly

But worse than the war is when AI just flat out can't function.

Such is the case with some civs more than others: Polynesia, Atilla, Spain were civs for me who never seemed to utilize their Uniques to the same level as the other civs

Almost certain AI Indonesia will fall under the same problem. Portugal a strong possibility as well

kaspergm · May 21, 2013

Yes, I do hope they have improved AI capability of long term strategy. Currently, most AI's seem to focus only on war. I hate it when AI player is in war, then they fight for a while, then they make peace, and literally the next turn they come asking me to join them in war with a third party player. :mad:

For christ's sake, try to be in peace just for a single turn before engaging a new war!

therottweiler · May 21, 2013

VenGyr said:
In my games the AI actually pillages fairly often (a huge attack on my city, where it gets surrounded, might leave 2 tiles pillaged, granted thats not much). I'd rather it be like unprotected GP, workers or settlers, where AIs just ingnore them, and in many cases seem to try to avoid them.

The AI always pillages me for healing when attacking.

Buccaneer · May 21, 2013

We better hope the AI can continue it's warring ways because that and teching are the two things it does well (for an AI). That becomes an equalizer against the human player at the highest difficulties. Also, getting one civ to war against another civ is an effective and sometimes crucial strategy. For the so-called peaceful civs, all some do is to stupidly build lots of world wonders (which the human player should not do ever), thus become rich targets.

The ways that the game would be more challenging on immortal and deity are to have the opponents war more with better promoted/upgraded units and to race further ahead technologically in the later parts of the game. Those are the two ways they can consistently beat you before turn 300 and if they can do better in those areas, then perhaps that would lowered to 260-280, thus providing a real challenge.

theadder · May 21, 2013

Buccaneer said:
We better hope the AI can continue it's warring ways because that and teching are the two things it does well (for an AI). That becomes an equalizer against the human player at the highest difficulties. Also, getting one civ to war against another civ is an effective and sometimes crucial strategy. For the so-called peaceful civs, all some do is to stupidly build lots of world wonders (which the human player should not do ever), thus become rich targets.

The ways that the game would be more challenging on immortal and deity are to have the opponents war more with better promoted/upgraded units and to race further ahead technologically in the later parts of the game. Those are the two ways they can consistently beat you before turn 300 and if they can do better in those areas, then perhaps that would lowered to 260-280, thus providing a real challenge.

The things I said are at Immortal.

It isn't hard to defend against the AI. War is not something it "does well"!

It's totally unrealistic about whether it can win; the hint is that it virtually never can.

It should properly pursue the other victory conditions more decisively.

Concerns for BNW

Deity

Per Scribendum, Volo

Quietly Confident

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Chieftain

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Deity

Deity

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Deity

Warlord

Prince

Deity

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