Extending the generic property system

Out of curiosity, is Flammability going to be converted after the freeze? I'll need to convert Coit Tower when that gets changed over.

Vokarya said:

Out of curiosity, is Flammability going to be converted after the freeze? I'll need to convert Coit Tower when that gets changed over.

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This is what AIAndy said about Flammability ...

AIAndy said:

No, the old things still work fine. There is no must to replace and I don't think it makes even sense for flammability to use the new part of the system. They are different kinds of properties.

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Thus I am leaving flammability the way it is.

Hydromancerx said:

This is what AIAndy said about Flammability ...



Thus I am leaving flammability the way it is.

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OK, just checking.

So after some testing I either have cities with uber safety or moderate to low crime. This means that there are not enough crime contributing things. So I would like some ideas of what other buildings should contribute crime. I am thinking possibly ...

- Ports
- Military/Naval Bases
- Barracks/Garrison
- Fighting Pit
- Liquor Store
- Night Club

Anyone else have some ideas?

Hydromancerx said:

So after some testing I either have cities with uber safety or moderate to low crime. This means that there are not enough crime contributing things. So I would like some ideas of what other buildings should contribute crime. I am thinking possibly ...

- Ports
- Military/Naval Bases
- Barracks/Garrison
- Fighting Pit
- Liquor Store
- Night Club

Anyone else have some ideas?

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You could also increase the base crime per population (currently 1 crime per population and turn).

ghettos, slums, shanty town, refugee camps ( high density poor city areas are often centers of crime )
market bazaar etc ( its the working area of a pickpocket
fundamental church ( the name is a bit different ingame)
meeting hall ( high consumption of alcohol)
bank ( banks are worse than standing armies
computer network ( internet piracy)
greenhouse ? ( ilegal drugs )
secret tunnels
gambling hall
catacombs
guilds and companys ? ( People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public )

maybe public schools and healthcare ofices should decrease crime. every building that increase life quality of the poors should decrease crime

AIAndy said:

You could also increase the base crime per population (currently 1 crime per population and turn).

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banks (white collar crime)

Some more ideas for crime;

-Computer Networks (ID theft)
-Admin buildings (corruption/bribery)
-Vokarya's new Casino wonders

I also like AIAndy's idea of increasing the amount of crime each pop point provides, as it is simple and can be easily adjusted.

Koshling said:

banks (white collar crime)

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Good idea, banks are the greatest villains.

Btw, I think we need to add code to the building evaluation so that the AI understands the crime sources. Should be the same kind of code as the old one that deals with the fixed addition to e.g. flammability.

I still think that lack of buildings should increase crime. Not having a theater after you have the poetry tech and have a population of more than 6. "There is nothing to do.", "Why doesn't the Government do something useful" - that sort of thing.

For example each give +1 crime per turn (scaling) reduces after building built.

Culture related

Safety related

I have not had my coffee yet this morning so that is all I can think of at the moment.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I still think that lack of buildings should increase crime. Not having a theater after you have the poetry tech and have a population of more than 6. "There is nothing to do.", "Why doesn't the Government do something useful" - that sort of thing.

For example each give +1 crime per turn (scaling) reduces after building built.

Culture related

- no story teller after Barter in any size city.
- no theater after Poetry and city size
​

Safety related

- border town without walls of some kind and size 4 or more
- no town watch above size 10​

I have not had my coffee yet this morning so that is all I can think of at the moment.

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IMO that's not really well modelled by crime. That's more what instability is for (needs REV though), or (no REV) unhappiness (jealousy). Having said that crime and instability are not totally independent concepts. We **might** want to start a project of migrating some REV concepts/functionality into the core via properties (i.e. - instability as a property, which crime would act as a source for amongst other things)

Koshling said:

IMO that's not really well modelled by crime. That's more what instability is for (needs REV though), or (no REV) unhappiness (jealousy). Having said that crime and instability are not totally independent concepts. We **might** want to start a project of migrating some REV concepts/functionality into the core via properties (i.e. - instability as a property, which crime would act as a source for amongst other things)

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I agree that we need to start to look into moving at least some of Revolutions concepts into the property system. I see crime as part of the instability model. It is something that "we" are specificly adding which is part of the model in RevDCM.

However on back to my suggestion.
1) many studies indicate that lack of culture and "things to do" does increase crime. "The devil finds work for idle hands." Cultural stuff increases the sense of community
2) not having security in the city leads to opportunities for crime especially in border cities, smuggling and the like.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I agree that we need to start to look into moving at least some of Revolutions concepts into the property system. I see crime as part of the instability model. It is something that "we" are specificly adding which is part of the model in RevDCM.

However on back to my suggestion.
1) many studies indicate that lack of culture and "things to do" does increase crime. "The devil finds work for idle hands." Cultural stuff increases the sense of community
2) not having security in the city leads to opportunities for crime especially in border cities, smuggling and the like.

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True, but my point was that not having a theatre when plays are invented doesn't mean you have any less to do (you still have your dance huts etc.). It's not that people are more idle/have more idel time, it's that they see (hear about) other people enjoying this new art form. That's why I describe the effect as being basically jealousy, which can lead to discontent in the most law-abiding of citizens. Hence (subtle difference I agree) instability rather than crime.

I certainly don't doubt that crime leads to instability, but I don't think the converse is always true (though it partly depends on ones definition of criminal -we quickly get into the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument here)

Koshling said:

True, but my point was that not having a theatre when plays are invented doesn't mean you have any less to do (you still have your dance huts etc.). It's not that people are more idle/have more idel time, it's that they see (hear about) other people enjoying this new art form. That's why I describe the effect as being basically jealousy, which can lead to discontent in the most law-abiding of citizens. Hence (subtle difference I agree) instability rather than crime.

I certainly don't doubt that crime leads to instability, but I don't think the converse is always true (though it partly depends on ones definition of criminal -we quickly get into the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument here)

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No theatre when poetry is discovered ie three techs further down the tree at least, and it was only an example I could think of where the tree was obvious.

These are all great ideas you guys! I think most of them should be implemented and should help make crime a harder factor to solve than it is now. I also think since there are only 20 types of crimes and they are scattered across the tech tree that its hard to gauge things yet.

Thanks for the great feedback everyone!

Maybe the lack of building increasing crime/instability should not be when you have the tech but when you build the building in one of your city, so they get jealous over something they see others have not just something they heard could be build eventually.

if you need more crimes
what about shoplifting ( supermarket )
robber knight
internet piracy
industrial espionage ( need at least two companys guilds in a city )
sabotage ( again two giulds ore companies compete against each other)
hostage-taking
sedition
slave trade ( of couse just i slavery isnt your civic )
independent press ( need fachist )

sorry if you already have this ideas

@Kreatur

Thanks. Its no so much the crimes yet. I could have 100 different types of crimes but if you never have high enough crime to trigger them they they will never show up in your city. Thus first balance is to make crime harder to fight back. This means more crime sources (or possibly weaker law sources).

Which is why I am tackling having more buildings contribute to crime. Lots of little sources of crime should have a better feel then a few large sources of crime.

few other crimes, just throwing around ideas
religeous conversion (running fundamentalism and having a non-state religion in the city)
joyriding
illegal political movements (any civic which restricts free politics)
the resistance (if you are at war with a civ with significant cultural influence inside the city)
treehugger forest occupation (requires forest in city which is being chopped down)
beggars and the homeless

EDIT @Hydromancerx some of these could add to crime like the resistance, religeous conversion, forest occupation

Other possible sources of crime:
-drug abuse (not only with drugs but also with sedatives)
-the presence of precious resources (if it is precious, somebody will try to steal it, possibly requires some kind of privatization civic, or other civs to desire access to a resource)
-the stance of government on morality (if conservative the government needs to make sure that everybody acts along the moral codes, if progressive the government needs to make sure that rights are respected, possibly influenced by other civs you have open border/free immigration with, but with different stance)
-automatization in a pre-scarcity society (unemployment, could be triggered by techs, buildings); or maybe unemployment as a whole but this would require an extra parameter to be added to the equation

AIAndy said:

Btw, I think we need to add code to the building evaluation so that the AI understands the crime sources. Should be the same kind of code as the old one that deals with the fixed addition to e.g. flammability.

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Definately.

This should be easy based on the existing code for evaluating property values provided the code can fairly readily assess the sources and decays etc. to figure out what the tyrend value of the property is likely to be given a building change. I have not been keeping up with the details really ogf how crime has translated to property effects - can you post a summary of how it auto-decays, how it auto-generates (i.e. - non-building sources), and what its effects currently are (the property value assesment system we put in really assumed effects were via events, so just has the concept of an efective range and which is the bad end of it - if coupling to effects is more complex now that will need to be revisited).

Once I have a full summary I'll be in a better position to evaluate how hard it's going to be to add the necessary AI evaluation.

We definately will need this for v22.