Extending the generic property system

BlueGenie · Mar 19, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
I think we should keep it in case we make special anti-crime buildings that are only unlocked with a high safety score. Perhaps some bonus to military XP or special promotions if you get a city with a high enough safety. Or just a bonus to happiness and health. There is lots of potential.

Sounds good. It should also mean that 0 in crime isn't zero in crime but low crime while on or near -200 in crime IS zero.
With the ranges of -200 to 800 it would be something like:
-200 to -101: Protected/No Crime
-100 to 99: Safe/Low Crime
100 to 299: Unsecured/Medium Crime
300 to 499: Dangerous/High Crime
500 to 699: Hazardous/Rampant Crime
700 to 800: Lawlessness

If you want any chance of getting to and staying in the negative then I think 5 crime per pop is way overdoing it even if you are planning to add more buildings as well as the promotions for crime reductive units, and increasing the crime reduction on existing buildings.
Population of 40 (+200 crime) around when Jails come into play right now gives somewhere around 60-100 reduction in crime from buildings. Having or wanting some of the increasing commerce or gold that give crime rate too can probably easily get us up to +150 crime/turn. How much would a Crime Control unit reduce?
In effect probably impossible to get/keep crime below 0 once your capital reaches size 5 (offsetting the -20 crime and adding to +5/turn).

Cheers

AIAndy · Mar 19, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Fluctuation of crime isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the save every other turn is the same constant change to crime, and every other turn is another constant change.
It goes like this: -4 crime, +5 crime, -4 crime, +5 crime, -4 crime, +5 crime, and so on.
First I thought this had to do with the high negative values in the adjacent plots but those are no longer so high and it's still doing the same cycle.
I am still playing the scenario and I was right. 19 crime the next turn, to 15, to 20, to 16, to 21, to 17. I'm betting until I get another + or - crime effect, probably next pop increase, it'll keep doing that.

The savegame crashes for me with an empty minidump.
My guess is that what you are seeing there is actually not a bug but the slow diffusion of crime into the plots around the city. Including the one under the city there are 9 and -4 = 5 - 9.
The diffusion probably only happens every second turn because of using integer division (the amount it would like to diffuse has not reached 1 yet).

Koshling · Mar 19, 2012

AIAndy said:
The savegame crashes for me with an empty minidump.
My guess is that what you are seeing there is actually not a bug but the slow diffusion of crime into the plots around the city. Including the one under the city there are 9 and -4 = 5 - 9.
The diffusion probably only happens every second turn because of using integer division (the amount it would like to diffuse has not reached 1 yet).

Maybe change that to probabilistic to smooth things out? (so 0.4 = 40% chance of propagating 1 and resetting to 0)

Edit - or better scale it by 100 and operate on the micro-property 100ths, but provide the full values through most methods?

BlueGenie · Mar 19, 2012

Ah, ok. Weird, but ok. Really weird that your game crashes too, mine runs perfectly. Want me to post my settings/changed files too? (includes the changes I made to the handicap file).

Interesting that the diffusion actually takes crime from the plot/city, that might make 3 crime/pop a better number than the 2 I was thinking of suggesting.

Also, why do people keep posting while I'm writing stuff... *grin*

Though, about the diffusion and the decay I have a concern, or question rather: Does it diffuse with -200 as the goal line or 0?
This can become important and I think it would be a good idea to decide and set what base line it uses from start and adjust properties accordingly.
Having 0 as base means needing higher crime fighting to reach near -200.
4% of 100 diffused and 4% decayed is an additional +8 crime towards 0 and +16 if at -200, needing minimum a total modification of -17 crime per turn, including all factors, to reach -200 crime.
Having -200 as baseline means that you really only need a total modification of -1 crime per turn to be able to reach/get to -200 at some point. It also changes the reduction of crime in cities with an additional 16 crime per turn decayed/diffused when over 0 crime.

Cheers

AIAndy · Mar 19, 2012

Koshling said:
Maybe change that to probabilistic to smooth things out? (so 0.4 = 40% chance of propagating 1 and resetting to 0)

Edit - or better scale it by 100 and operate on the micro-property 100ths, but provide the full values through most methods?

That would be possible but on the other hand a bit of fluctuation doesn't hurt.

Hydromancerx · Mar 19, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Sounds good. It should also mean that 0 in crime isn't zero in crime but low crime while on or near -200 in crime IS zero.
With the ranges of -200 to 800 it would be something like:
-200 to -101: Protected/No Crime
-100 to 99: Safe/Low Crime
100 to 299: Unsecured/Medium Crime
300 to 499: Dangerous/High Crime
500 to 699: Hazardous/Rampant Crime
700 to 800: Lawlessness

If you want any chance of getting to and staying in the negative then I think 5 crime per pop is way overdoing it even if you are planning to add more buildings as well as the promotions for crime reductive units, and increasing the crime reduction on existing buildings.
Population of 40 (+200 crime) around when Jails come into play right now gives somewhere around 60-100 reduction in crime from buildings. Having or wanting some of the increasing commerce or gold that give crime rate too can probably easily get us up to +150 crime/turn. How much would a Crime Control unit reduce?
In effect probably impossible to get/keep crime below 0 once your capital reaches size 5 (offsetting the -20 crime and adding to +5/turn).

Cheers

Well right now have the stats at ....

+1000 Terrorism (Coming Soon)
+800 Piracy (Coming Soon)
+750 Organized Crime
+700 Murder
+600 Poaching
+525 Rape
+500 Gangs
+450 Drugs
+400 Car Theft
+375 Hacking (Coming Soon)
+350 Bank Robbery
+325 Burglary
+300 Fighting
+275 Mugging
+250 Arson
+200 Pick Pocketing
+100 Counterfeiting
+75 Forgery
+50 Drunk Driving
+25 Internet Piracy (Coming Soon)
+10 Graffiti
+5 Toilet Papering
+1 Soliciting

Note that these number (especially the new ones) may need to be adjusted.

Koshling · Mar 19, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
Well right now have the stats at ....

+1000 Terrorism (Coming Soon)
+800 Piracy (Coming Soon)
+750 Organized Crime
+700 Murder
+600 Poaching
+525 Rape
+500 Gangs
+450 Drugs
+400 Car Theft
+350 Bank Robbery
+325 Burglary
+300 Fighting
+275 Mugging
+250 Arson
+200 Pick Pocketing
+125 Internet Piracy (Coming Soon)
+100 Counterfeiting
+75 Forgery
+50 Drunk Driving
+10 Graffiti
+5 Toilet Papering
+1 Soliciting

ah, if they go up to 1000 now update the iOperationalRangeMax to 1010 or soemthing - important thing is that it be SLIGHTLY more than the highest trigger value.

JosEPh_II · Mar 19, 2012

Military units stationed in the city and/or it's tiles should reduce the crime in that city and/or it's tiles. If you have to wait till a Police dog or Police type unit is available that is late in the game and does nothing for early and mid game situations. Standard mil units should reduce crime, a Lot!

So far I think having the worked tiles produce crime at Any rate is OP. Bad enough the buildings in the city tile, but the outreach is too strong. Now I can not even build gold producing bldgs to grow wealth. My farms and lumber mills are crime dens? Huh? What? :shake:

And what's it doing to the AI? Poor ol' Sleepy Eye my neighbor has at most 2 to 3 units per city stationed in his 16 cities. He can't field an effective army if he wanted too. He has several Hunters with 20 subdued animals attached that won't go home! (probably another problem). And when he brings a Mil unit to the border it's generally a town watch man (single at that). I did see a lone tomahawk thrower of his yesterday.

Yeah, it needs some balancing and hopefully some major reductions. Cause as it stands it's just getting more frustrating and unplayable. Just how I see it right now. Sorry for the bad report.

JosEPh

AIAndy · Mar 19, 2012

BlueGenie said:
Ah, ok. Weird, but ok. Really weird that your game crashes too, mine runs perfectly. Want me to post my settings/changed files too? (includes the changes I made to the handicap file).

Interesting that the diffusion actually takes crime from the plot/city, that might make 3 crime/pop a better number than the 2 I was thinking of suggesting.

Also, why do people keep posting while I'm writing stuff... *grin*

Though, about the diffusion and the decay I have a concern, or question rather: Does it diffuse with -200 as the goal line or 0?
This can become important and I think it would be a good idea to decide and set what base line it uses from start and adjust properties accordingly.
Having 0 as base means needing higher crime fighting to reach near -200.
4% of 100 diffused and 4% decayed is an additional +8 crime towards 0 and +16 if at -200, needing minimum a total modification of -17 crime per turn, including all factors, to reach -200 crime.
Having -200 as baseline means that you really only need a total modification of -1 crime per turn to be able to reach/get to -200 at some point. It also changes the reduction of crime in cities with an additional 16 crime per turn decayed/diffused when over 0 crime.

Cheers

Diffusion works by spreading the same total sum over a larger area. So if you would switch off your sources and decay after a lot of turns there would be the same crime everywhere (actually the integer math will keep some gradient). If you have a negative total sum, then after all those turns you would have the same negative crime amount everywhere.
In short, diffusion does not care about the absolute value, it cares about the difference between adjacent plots/cities.
Decay works based on 0 (but it is also possible to specify an amount that should not decay) and it will also decay negative crime.

BlueGenie · Mar 19, 2012

Good. Just wanted you to specify it so all were on the same page. *wink*

Diffuse basically just spreads the crime in one plot out to other plots then? Does that mean that in the long run ALL plots would end up with the same amount of crime if crime was a constant?

Cheers

ls612 · Mar 19, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
Is there a way to add anti-crime to a promotion? I would like to give the law enforcement promotion an anti-crime bonus to whatever tile they are standing on. Thus if you have enough police units in your city it can counter your crime.

Do we want to add Crime as a Promotion, or would it be better to add it directly to Units, both Positive and Negative? Or, would both be OK? Just throwing out ideas here.

On a related note, I agree with the others that 5 crime per pop point is a bit much. 2 is probably more than enough by the time all of the buildings and units are updated to the new system.

Hydromancerx said:
Well right now have the stats at ....

+1000 Terrorism (Coming Soon)
+800 Piracy (Coming Soon)
+750 Organized Crime
+700 Murder
+600 Poaching
+525 Rape
+500 Gangs
+450 Drugs
+400 Car Theft
+375 Hacking (Coming Soon)
+350 Bank Robbery
+325 Burglary
+300 Fighting
+275 Mugging
+250 Arson
+200 Pick Pocketing
+100 Counterfeiting
+75 Forgery
+50 Drunk Driving
+25 Internet Piracy (Coming Soon)
+10 Graffiti
+5 Toilet Papering
+1 Soliciting

Note that these number (especially the new ones) may need to be adjusted.

I think that Terrorism (as well as maybe Drug Trafficking) should be it's own seperate system, as opposed to the Crime system, because they are international effects with global networks and different goals from other Crime. IE, most 'normal' crime is done for financial benefit of one kind or another, whereas Al Qaida and other Terrorist organizations attack to try and destabilize governments. WLBO had something like this, and it is most likely doable in a seperate system within the Extended Property System, in addition to other WLBO stuff.

AIAndy · Mar 19, 2012

JosEPh_II said:
So far I think having the worked tiles produce crime at Any rate is OP. Bad enough the buildings in the city tile, but the outreach is too strong. Now I can not even build gold producing bldgs to grow wealth. My farms and lumber mills are crime dens? Huh? What?

They don't produce crime. Only population and specific buildings do. But some of the bad people from the city go out and terrorize your poor farming folks.

Yeah, it needs some balancing and hopefully some major reductions. Cause as it stands it's just getting more frustrating and unplayable. Just how I see it right now. Sorry for the bad report.

Only just added so no wonder (that is the disadvantage of being on the SVN, it is beta and some beta stuff needs adjusting after being added).
The main problem at the moment is the too high crime per population. And that some people have nearly no law buildings (they usually cost gold) but several crime buildings (which tend to get you gold).
The freeze now is good to get that under control based on feedback before the release of the next version.

Koshling · Mar 19, 2012

ls612 said:
Do we want to add Crime as a Promotion, or would it be better to add it directly to Units, both Positive and Negative? Or, would both be OK? Just throwing out ideas here.

On a related note, I agree with the others that 5 crime per pop point is a bit much. 2 is probably more than enough by the time all of the buildings and units are updated to the new system.

I think that Terrorism (as well as maybe Drug Trafficking) should be it's own seperate system, as opposed to the Crime system, because they are international effects with global networks and different goals from other Crime. IE, most 'normal' crime is done for financial benefit of one kind or another, whereas Al Qaida and other Terrorist organizations attack to try and destabilize governments. WLBO had something like this, and it is most likely doable in a seperate system within the Extended Property System, in addition to other WLBO stuff.

If units are getting any crime effects I nee considerably more time beore v22 to add suitable AI. Adding AI for unit effects will be considerably moer complex than for static city effects.

JosEPh_II · Mar 19, 2012

AIAndy said:
They don't produce crime. Only population and specific buildings do. But some of the bad people from the city go out and terrorize your poor farming folks.

<snip>

Not where I live they don't, unless they like buckshot in their backsides.

Seriously can't pop be left out for now till the buildings get balanced? It seems as though every time a new system is introduced it's like trying to dump a truckload of "stuff' into a shoebox. It don't fit! :eek:

Wouldn't it have been more prudent to add it in bit by bit, section by section to see how it fits? As SO says, "just sayin'"!

JosEPh

Hydromancerx · Mar 19, 2012

JosEPh_II said:
Military units stationed in the city and/or it's tiles should reduce the crime in that city and/or it's tiles. If you have to wait till a Police dog or Police type unit is available that is late in the game and does nothing for early and mid game situations. Standard mil units should reduce crime, a Lot!

The units that have the Law Enforcement promotion are ...

Town Watchmen -> Guard -> City Guard -> Sheriff -> Police Squad -> Police Car - Police Mech

Note that it already reduces revolts.

So you would just have to wait until Masonry tech. Unless I gave the dogs the promotion in which you would have to wait until Canine Domestication.

Hydromancerx · Mar 19, 2012

ls612 said:
Do we want to add Crime as a Promotion, or would it be better to add it directly to Units, both Positive and Negative? Or, would both be OK? Just throwing out ideas here.

Yes I want to have Law Enforcement units (ex. Police Squad, Town Watchmen, Guard, etc) to reduce crime and Criminal units (Thief, Bandit Footpad, Outlaw, etc) to give increase crime.

ls612 said:
On a related note, I agree with the others that 5 crime per pop point is a bit much. 2 is probably more than enough by the time all of the buildings and units are updated to the new system.

Already changed to 3 on the SVN.

ls612 said:
I think that Terrorism (as well as maybe Drug Trafficking) should be it's own seperate system, as opposed to the Crime system, because they are international effects with global networks and different goals from other Crime. IE, most 'normal' crime is done for financial benefit of one kind or another, whereas Al Qaida and other Terrorist organizations attack to try and destabilize governments. WLBO had something like this, and it is most likely doable in a seperate system within the Extended Property System, in addition to other WLBO stuff.

I don't know, terrorists like Oklahoma City bomber were Americans bombing America. If i recall no other country was involved. Note that I can set revolutions stats to crimes too which can both increase or decrease revolutions within a Crime pseudo-building.

Hydromancerx · Mar 19, 2012

JosEPh_II said:
Wouldn't it have been more prudent to add it in bit by bit, section by section to see how it fits? As SO says, "just sayin'"!

This is just the first bit. In fact not even all of the first bit. I want to add more types of crimes, have civics and units effect crime, etc. This is just the tip of the iceberg! This is one reason I did not want to adjust the health and happiness since these would need to be in place to buffer the crime in a city.

I should hope people are having less happiness and health now that the first set of crimes are in place.

JosEPh_II · Mar 19, 2012

Well if it's just the tip of the iceberg then it's claimed 1 "titanic", my current game, already. :nuke:

JosEPh

BlueGenie · Mar 19, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
So you would just have to wait until Masonry tech. Unless I gave the dogs the promotion in which you would have to wait until Canine Domestication.

The dogs getting a lesser Law Enforcement promotion makes sense. After all they can spot criminal stealth units.

Cheers

Hydromancerx · Mar 19, 2012

BlueGenie said:
The dogs getting a lesser Law Enforcement promotion makes sense. After all they can spot criminal stealth units.

Cheers

I am also thinking about bringing back the Law Enforcement II, III and IV promotions. These would be special promotions that only law enforcement units could earn to give them a bigger anti-crime boost to your city.

Extending the generic property system

Emperor

Deity

Vorlon

Emperor

Deity

C2C Modder

Vorlon

TBS WarLord

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Vorlon

TBS WarLord

C2C Modder

C2C Modder

C2C Modder

TBS WarLord

Emperor

C2C Modder

Similar threads