New Unit Review Notifications

5. Unknown.

UNITCLASS_ATTACK_SUBMARINE

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Yeah, wow... some analysis of the late naval stuff shows its a real mess particularly with sub upgrades - at this stage they're absolutely the most powerful naval units around and they don't have a straight progression but are out of tech order in this regard. A quick fix to help smooth it out some (but it really shows that a full naval unit evaluation is needed to achieve a rebalance of the entire naval scheme in the modern and beyond):
1)Moving Nuclear Sub to Superconductors (x87)
2)Moving Stealth Sub to Solar Propulsion (x91)
This at least gets the subs into a reasonable progression line BUT they're still outpowering other naval contemporaries and this should be eventually fully evaluated for a complete rebalancing.


OK, so far:

Also: Noted that Bazooka upgrades to Sam Infantry - It seemed a bit out of place in the list when evaluated as a Shellfire unit and the Sam Infantry utilizes a non-ranged bombarding UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_SHORT_RANGE_MISSILE which based on the rest of the balance factors surrounding the Bazooka unit on the Ranged Bombard Chart, I have now updated the Bazooka to a UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_SHORT_RANGE_MISSILE as well and removed its access to Shellfire and ranged bombard entirely (removed the rbombard tag applications on that unit too.)

2)Moving Stealth Sub to Solar Propulsion (x91)

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Why? Solar Propulsion is for Spacecraft. You know like solar winds?

Hydromancerx said:

Why? Solar Propulsion is for Spacecraft. You know like solar winds?

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1) There's nothing happening on that tech at the moment so could use a little benefit to getting it.
2) This grid x value is roughly where the unit would fit based on current statistics.
3) There's really no more appropriate tech between the last sub upgrade and the next anywhere. No tech between Superconductors - new position for Nuclear Sub - and Unmanned Naval Vehicles - the position for Unmanned Sub really fits for the stealth sub and if placed before Neural Networks the Stealth Sub is so much stronger than the Aegis Cruiser unlocked there that it's silly to ever build the Aegis.
4) For rationale: I figure the Solar Propulsion technologies in development at this point have unlocked an underwater engine mechanism that is completely silent. It's a weak justification admittedly.

I would welcome an effort to completely restructure the naval ship values and access around this time - it seems terribly off as it is. This is simply the best I can do with the techs we have and the other units unlocked around those areas.

Looking over the old RoM/AND mod documents it appears that the Stealth Sub was not in the old version but in AND 2.9 version. In which the stats went ...

Submarine (35) -> Attack Submarine (54) -> Nuclear Submarine (80) -> Stealth Submarine (110) -> Fusion Submarine (?)

I think a similar upgrade chain should be there. In our current mod it goes ...

- Uboat = Submarine Warfare AND Chemistry
- Submarine = Submarine Warfare
- Attack Submarine = Advanced Rocketry AND Sonar
- Nuclear Submarine = Nuclear Power AND Sonar AND Guided Weapons
- Stealth Submarine = Fuel Cells AND Sonar AND Guided Weapons AND Stealth
- Fusion Submarine = Biomimetics AND Fusion AND Sonar

As you can see there is a lot of redundancy and the upgrade pathing is not clear. I propose the upgrade in this order and have the following tech requirements and strength adjustments ...

- Uboat (STR 35) = Combustion (X66)
- Submarine (STR 45) = Submarine Warfare (X73)
- Attack Submarine (STR 55) = Sonar (X75)
- Nuclear Submarine (STR 65) = Nuclear Power AND Advanced Rocketry (X82)
- Stealth Submarine (STR 75) = Fuel Cells AND Guided Weapons AND Stealth (X86)
- Fusion Submarine (STR 120) = Biomimetics AND Fusion (X98)

What do you think?

Without looking too closely at the moment it sounds good but don't forget to factor in the Unmanned Sub as well.

Now just as problematic is where other ship lines are upgrading. With any arrangement along the lines proposed, the sub line currently grows far too dominant strength-wise. Though it looks like you might have well considered that with the strength adjustments proposed. I'll have to look at the tech tree and envision this more clearly but this certainly sounds like an improvement.

@TB

I want to add some of the Mass Effect units and am first looking at the Mako APC. So I was looking at the other Vehicle we have. Which are ...

Wheeled Transports
Jeep -> Humvee -> ACV

Armored Vehicles
Armored Car -> Modern APC -> Hi-Tech APC

Looking though them I noticed a few things ...

1. The Hi-Tech APC is UGLY! And it has a lame name. Since the Hi-Tech APC is so lame I think we should either remove it OR replace it with a better looking unit and give it a better name.

2. Do we really need to have units be Combat Class Hi-Tech anymore if they have an era combat class? I am thinking we should do away with "Hi-Tech" combat class.

3. The ACV and ACV SAM are at Nanoeletrconics tech. I think that is WAY too late for them. If you have no objections I think I want to move them to Military Robotics tech where the Hi-Tech APC currently is.

In short I will be posting soon a proposal for a new unit using the Mako APC model. I am thinking it could fit at the Internal Shockwave Engine. That way the othr wheeled units are at Military Robotics (Early Transhuman) and then this new unit is at Shockwave Engine (Mid Transhuman).

EDIT: Here is the new unit. I call it the Shockwave APC.

EDIT2: Ok I think i found a graphic for the Hi-Tech APC, here. Note that the Hi-Tech APC is in early Transhuman Era which basically means today, or in the very near future. What should we rename it to? Robotic APC? Smart ACP? Digital APC?

You make a lot of good points but you're also opening discussionary cans of worms all over that post.

Ok, here goes:

H said:

I want to add some of the Mass Effect units and am first looking at the Mako APC. So I was looking at the other Vehicle we have. Which are ...

Wheeled Transports
Jeep -> Humvee -> ACV

Armored Vehicles
Armored Car -> Modern APC -> Hi-Tech APC

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Ok, first off, APC means Armored Personnel Carrier while ACV means Armored Combat Vehicle. So you've got the labels inversed and they should be:
Armored Vehicles
Jeep -> Humvee -> ACV

Wheeled Transports
Armored Car -> Modern APC -> Hi-Tech APC



And motorcycles still upgrade to jeeps right?

Ok, I'm thinking Motorcycles should NOT upgrade to Jeeps so they can keep very different roles - we've discussed motorized scouts before so while we do some of these things I'd ask us to implement a separate upgrade path (or just cut it off for now) for motorcycles (and war wheels) unless you want to make Jeeps and Humvees part of an extended scouting line which isn't really the role they tend to take.

That Wheeled Transport should be reflected then in keeping the Wheeled CC on those but also the Transport CC.

I've been intending to take the Transport CC on all ships and moving it to a sub-primary combat category and letting them be combatants as well because having Transport replace combatant is terribly unfair for those units with the way the GG works now. And I doubt we'll ever have a meaningful Great Military Person represent transports right? lol... so the only fair way is to allow those naval transports to be combatants as well. This same thinking then paves the way for simply adding the Transport CC to the 'Wheeled Transport' upgrade path units.

Now... APC means Armored Personnel Carrier and ACV means Armored Combat Vehicle. At the moment, the upgrade paths are reversed and should be:

Wheeled Transports
Jeep -> Humvee -> Modern APC -> HiTech APC

Armored Vehicles
Armored Car -> ACV

At the same time this means that Jeeps and Humvees should BE ABLE to transport units! At the moment they can't and they need to be adjusted so they can - simply 1 Land Domain unit transport capacity and type definition should be sufficient. Some AI will be necessary to support these properly but that will take some time so for now only the player will be able to make the best use of it unfortunately but that shouldn't stop us from making the adjustment since it's not the biggest handicap the AI will have (and it already does with APCs anyhow.)

I was going to suggest Jeeps and Humvees become more of an early troop transport vehicle BUT this becomes a little problematic since their classic role in warfare, which is to support the units they bring to the front, is kind of overlapping with that of the Armored Car and the Armored Car is admittedly a fairly contemporary unit to a Jeep. We have that fairly accurately reflected in their tech access:
Jeep(x75)
Armored Car(x74)

Now... Jeeps are used to transport soldiers and I see them as a Convoy's worth rather than just a couple of Jeeps. Armored Cars are used to transport special people from one place to another the way they're usually depicted in movies and such. Much less intended to be combat units, just tough to kill units to protect VIPs. This means 2 different roles CAN emerge between them, both being transportive.

The Jeep can be a fairly solid fighting vehicle that carries troops but quite fast, all terrain, and capable of some withdrawal and pursuit.
The Armored Car can be not so great on the attack as it is on the defense and very good at withdrawal and capable of carrying special people(including Commanders!). No pursuit though since it's role is not so potentially aggressive.
Thus we start two chains here, neither of which are quite yet ACV...(armored combat vehicles)
Wheeled Troop Transports
Jeep(x75)

and

Wheeled VIP Transports
Armored Car(x74)

Stepping through these, I'd suggest:

Wheeled Troop Transports
(<SpecialCargo>NONE</SpecialCargo>, <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainCargo> and iCargo of 1)
Jeep(x75) -> Humvee(x85)

And

Wheeled VIP Transports
(<SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</SpecialCargo>, <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainCargo> and iCargo of 1)
Armored Car(x74) -> Mako(x?)

The Mako is small in carrying capacity and very powerful and agile and fills the role nicely for something that would emerge just after the Humvee perhaps.

THEN we have the Armored Personnel Carriers.

What's the difference? Armored Personnel Carriers are capable of carrying not a few but a lot of troops - just not as fast as the Wheeled Troop Transports but much more heavily armored and armed to defend without ever withdrawing or pursuing. Not great at attack but solid at defense (including some small amount of interception perhaps.)

So that line would be:
Armored Personnel Carriers
Amphibious APC(x78) -> Modern APC(x82) -> HiTech APC(x94)


Thus we have:
Wheeled Troop Transports
(<SpecialCargo>NONE</SpecialCargo>, <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainCargo> and iCargo of 1)
(Good Pursuit - Medium Withdrawal - Terrain Attack Bonuses)
(Medium overall Strength that's comparable to the units they carry. Fast Movement)
Jeep(x75) -> Humvee(x85) -> Something to come? or Mako(x?)

Wheeled VIP Transports
(<SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</SpecialCargo>, <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainCargo> and iCargo of 1)
(Cannot Attack - No Pursuit - Strong Withdrawal. Very Fast Movement)
(Upper Medium overall Strength (without being able to attack this just means good defense))
Armored Car(x74) -> Mako(x?) or something to come? -> More to be developed?
Or perhaps splits off to Humvee(x85) after Armored Car And/Or an ACV line which would be more for direct combat and would thus not be suitable for continuing to be a VIP transport.

Armored Personnel Carriers
(<SpecialCargo>SPECIALUNIT_PEOPLE</SpecialCargo>, <DomainCargo>DOMAIN_LAND</DomainCargo> and iCargo of 2+1/upgrade)
(No Pursuit, No Withdrawal)
(Medium-High Strength, Medium movement, some interception and Terrain Defensive Bonuses)
Armored Truck(x?73?74?) -> Amphibious APC(x78) -> Modern APC(x82) -> HiTech APC(x94) -> ?

There would ALSO be ACVs - Armored Combat Vehicles. No transport. Very Strong. Medium Speed. Minor Withdrawal. Medium Pursuit. Plays a similar role to Heavy Mounted in Middle Ages. Weak to those foot units that are very setup to destroy vehicles. Great at defending against attacking troop transports and blends with the SAM at a point making them VERY good at combating Helicopters.

At the moment we only have the ACV and ACV SAM. The first should become the other I think (and be much earlier - though would require a significant stat adjustment.) Again, the Armored Car could split between this line and the Wheeled Troop Transport line perhaps or it could just continue on with new units fleshing out both upgrade chains.

Ok, trying to move on to comment on the rest of what you said:

H said:

Looking though them I noticed a few things ...

1. The Hi-Tech APC is UGLY! And it has a lame name. Since the Hi-Tech APC is so lame I think we should either remove it OR replace it with a better looking unit and give it a better name.

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Think Space Marines from the movie Alien or the transports that moved around the Terminators perhaps? I suppose some better art could replace it. Or be used for another step above it. Hi-Tech may be going too far with it... perhaps Advanced instead of Hi-tech?

H said:

2. Do we really need to have units be Combat Class Hi-Tech anymore if they have an era combat class? I am thinking we should do away with "Hi-Tech" combat class.

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No-I've thought much the same thing. But they'd need to be suitably replaced. And the promos would be a mess (that seems to be the main reason for the CC still remaining - and tech prereqs would have to suitably fill in the difference.) So it'd be a bit of a promo analysis to remove it safely.

H said:

3. The ACV and ACV SAM are at Nanoeletrconics tech. I think that is WAY too late for them. If you have no objections I think I want to move them to Military Robotics tech where the Hi-Tech APC currently is.

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As stated I'd like to have one replace the other and develop a whole ACV line.

H said:

EDIT2: Ok I think i found a graphic for the Hi-Tech APC, here. Note that the Hi-Tech APC is in early Transhuman Era which basically means today, or in the very near future. What should we rename it to? Robotic APC? Smart ACP? Digital APC?

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I'll have to take a look at it... Perhaps given the outlook above we should consider collecting a number of these unit arts into new units. Robotic and unmanned are cool too.

Speaking of Robotic... I have some interesting concepts there I've been meaning to share with you but I'll have to do it after I take the dog to the vet here and I was hoping to get some of the naval stuff proposed tonight too.

But interestingly enough - my thoughts on robotics may bleed over between both of these.

And perhaps the Wheeled Vehicles should take on a new project thread to not overwhelm new unit reviews no?

@TB

Well I am going to go push the ACV and ACV SAM changes on the SVN then. Its the simplest change.

@TB

Also added another unit for you to review called the Unmanned Trike which would go after the Motorcycle.

EDIT: And even more with the Unmanned Helicopter and Droid Helicopter.

oooh... ok, you really should see what I've got lining up for the naval - fits quite well with some of these new unit concepts! But I'll have to lay the foundational groundwork for the 'scenario' I see forming.

I've gotta get to bed (work has me waking up at 4 in the morning now !) But tomorrow I'll share my vision here and get yours in return and see if we can't find them in harmony.

I was asked to port this over from another thread earlier:


Triremes need to be trainable later into the game.


As it currently stands, they are often obsolete before you can even build them- as building them requires "Ship Building", but Bronze Working replaces them with Quinquremes in the build queue. Most players will research Bronze Working before "Ship Building", and in fact it requires a very convoluted path to get Ship Building before Bronze Working at all. In history, by contrast, the Trireme was the dominant polyreme naval warship for centuries...


This makes the "Quest" from the original game of building a certain number of Triremes before any other civilization (15 Triremes in my game) or the Renaissance all but impossible.


I suggest a solution to this in making Quinquremes available later in the game. They should not be available in the Early Bronze Age- in fact historically they were not produced until Dionysius I of Syracuse, in 399 BC.

I suggest Quinquremes be moved to Iron Working (currently occupied by Decaremes), and Decaremes be moved to some tech later in the Classical Period- as historically they were not produced in significant numbers until much later than Quinquremes, and were only really important in a few key naval battles at the height of the Classical Period (they are mentioned in battles in 315 BC, 201 BC, and at Actium in 51 BC).


Regards,
Northstar


P.S. As it currently stands, the Decere is incorrectly named a "Decareme"- hence why the description author could not find anything about it online, and *incorrectly* wrote "no such things exists according to the internet". The "Decareme" unit should be re-named as a "Decere" unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helleni...rships#Deceres

@Hydro: Can you review what he's saying above and let me know what you want done in final for adjusting those? I think he's right to an extent but I don't want to jump in without your review on it since you've asked the wooden ships to stay put.

I have changed the text and added a pedia text.

@TB

Well the Trireme require Metal Casting and Seafaring. Bronze Working on the other hand requires Metal Casting and Specialization. So there is a window between having Metal Casting and getting Bronze Working that you can make Triremes.

I use to have it where all 3 types could coexist and each specialized in attack or defense or speed. I could always put them back to that if you think I should. Note at the moment its VERY hard to get that quest.

The quest needs to be changed to end earlier and not be given after the trireme is obsolete. Another option is to make the quest accept any or the 'remes.

Firstly, it appears that 'deceres' is the singular not 'decere'.

Secondly, 'deceres' is just the Byzantine Greek-sourced equivalent of 'decareme' which would be the Latin-sourced form, so imo changing the name would be a bit pedantic.

When they were all simultaneous in the game, they all had a different starting promo or speciality, so there was a good gameplay reason for it, even though it is extremely not historically accurate.

Personally I don't think there is any reason for the decareme in the game from an historical perspective. Beyond about the quinquereme, the rows of oars were added for one-upmanship - they were basically just showing off and were of very little practical use - if not detrimental.

Finally I think it's a good idea of DH's to include 'quins' and 'decs' (and why not biremes too - maybe even dromons) in the quest requirement.

Hydromancerx said:

@TB

Well the Trireme require Metal Casting and Seafaring. Bronze Working on the other hand requires Metal Casting and Specialization. So there is a window between having Metal Casting and getting Bronze Working that you can make Triremes.

I use to have it where all 3 types could coexist and each specialized in attack or defense or speed. I could always put them back to that if you think I should. Note at the moment its VERY hard to get that quest.

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I got the quest, and was incredibly frustrated as I didn't realize that I would be unable to build Triremes when I got Ship Building, as I had already developed Bronze Working first...


The Trireme requires Metal Casting and Ship Building. I know the unit itself might say Seafaring (I'd have to check), but in order to actually build the unit you have to build a Shipyard (or was it a Dockyard?) which requires Ship Building- a Classical Era tech (Bronze Working is a late Ancient Era tech).


In order to get Seafaring, you need Piracy, which requires Locksmithing, which requires Specialization. So actually, there is very little gap- it's HIGHLY likely that if you already have both the prerequisite techs for Bronze Working, you're going to choose that over Piracy and then Seafaring.


Having the units specialize doesn't make much sense either- the Quinqureme generally outclassed the Trireme in almost all combat situations, even though it was a bit slower. The Decere could make short work of any Quinqureme.


Regards,
Northstar

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The quest needs to be changed to end earlier and not be given after the trireme is obsolete. Another option is to make the quest accept any or the 'remes.

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I don't like the idea of making the quest any harder to get. I feel the quests add flavor, and an element of chance (which ones you get, if any) to the game.

Making it accept any of the 'remes would be perfectly acceptable, however.


Regards,
Northstar

Yudishtira said:

Firstly, it appears that 'deceres' is the singular not 'decere'.

Secondly, 'deceres' is just the Byzantine Greek-sourced equivalent of 'decareme' which would be the Latin-sourced form, so imo changing the name would be a bit pedantic.

When they were all simultaneous in the game, they all had a different starting promo or speciality, so there was a good gameplay reason for it, even though it is extremely not historically accurate.

Personally I don't think there is any reason for the decareme in the game from an historical perspective. Beyond about the quinquereme, the rows of oars were added for one-upmanship - they were basically just showing off and were of very little practical use - if not detrimental..

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The Decere was a Greek invention- so using the Greek form of the name would only make sense...


As for the strengths of the different ships, it was FAR from one-upmanship. The "heavier" polyremes were used as floating artillery platforms. This added a new dimension to naval battles, beyond simple ramming and boarding, and was also incredibly useful for naval assaults on coastal cities...

The Hexareme ("six") was generally considered all-around superior to the Quinqureme ("five"), actually- although not by much.

It was only AFTER the Hexareme, which was still an extremely common design, when you started to get to "sevens", "eights", "nines", and "tens" (the Decere) that you started to trade off speed for thicker hulls and more firepower in a major way. But the heavier variants still had their niches, and were extremely useful for flagships and heavy boarding ships (the larger ships could hold a larger marine complement, both in relative and absolute size). They just operated best as part of large fleets, with smaller ships to protect their vulnerable, slow oar banks... That said, one-on-one, a Decere would still outclass a Quinqureme.


It might make sense to give the Decere a lesser increase in strength relative to the Quinqureme, however (it should still be stronger), and give it bombardment abilities instead, to reflect its suitability for and common use as a heavy naval artillery platform...


Regards,
Northstar

Do you have any links or references regarding the use of hexes or later in symmetrical warfare (success against hugely outnumbered or out-teched enemies doesn't prove anything)? If it happened, it's strange that Wikipedia omits it.

Are you claiming that decere not deceres is the singular? I would genuinely appreciate it if you could tell me on what basis you do so. The Wikipedia article clearly contrasts "the deceres" with "the quinquereme", strongly implying that it is using the singular in both cases.

were extremely useful for flagships and heavy boarding ships

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The former is precisely the one-upman-ship lol. What else are flagships for other than PR and perhaps intimidation/psych(-out) warfare?

The latter is a troop transport (galley) with more cargo spaces.

They clearly do not benefit from more ranks of oars since they are slower and less manoeuvrable.

I accept your point that their increased bulk allowed them to carry more offensive weaponry and more troops that would also be used in an offensive capacity. But as you concede, they are very much a specialty ship and relied on quins backing them up en masse for any kind of effectiveness. This would make them a very useful add to the mod as an upgrade of the Siege Quin - rather than their current 'role'.