The Immortal Challenge Lineup - Game #15 Austria

kb27787 said:
Spoiler :
Why you would expand early when there are crucial wonders (i.e. Petra) at stake is beyond me...
It's fine to win with OCC (esp Petra + HG) on immortal, but it's quite vexing to win with a crappy cap :lol:
Starting location is not so bad if you tell yourself "I'll be fine OCC as long as I get Petra"

btw... no oil :lol:
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Spoiler :
Yeah I made a lot of mistakes in the early game. Underestimated immortal AI. If I would have started the desert city first before the banana/mountain city I'd have gotten the Petra and not have delayed my NC by 20+ turns. I waited long on HG because no one else went tradition but I guess some body had only opened the tree(which it doesn't tell you in diplomacy page for some reason).

Paris has some oil off the coast so I'm not completely screwed when it comes time to upgrade my frigates. Just barely squeezed through the north to get my navy to the Ottomans, had 7 frigates and 3 privateers and man does he have a ton of units. Slowly killing off his units, took one of his cities so far and have 3 frigates with range and logistics.

Had to go autocracy because somehow Attila is leading in tourism and is familiar with every other civ, also have very low happiness still so couldn't afford any ideology pressure.

 
T328 quit.

Spoiler :
Almost took Istanbul but he got flight and wiped out my navy, managed to take 3 of his cities and sold them to Attila who razed them all. Attila then DoW Egypt and took all his cities except Thebes so I declared war on Egypt waiting with a hussar to steal the city. Attila peaced out when the city was in red for some reason, threw my hussar at the city anyway but the city was too strong for my little pony... Peaced out with Egypt only to have the Iroquois take his capital 2 turns later.

Pacal was lagging behind in tech a bit so I sent 6 artillery, 3 gaitling guns and a couple hussar his way along with what was left of my navy. He got flight after I took out most of his units and my army was shredded yet again while desperately throwing everything I had at his 120 strength capital ...

I've been voting for Iroquois as host to keep a friend and to repay me he bans freaking salt, the only luxury I have in my 4 settled cities other than the 1 marble... France then decided after a thousand years to attack me again, had Paris well defended thinking that would be his target, nope. He nuked my 2nd city(science city) and took it over then nuked Paris wiping out all my defenses and strolled in and took it back.

Story of this game was delaying too long(wonders and wars) and underestimating the AI. Both wars against the Ottomans and Egyptians could have been won had I not second guessed them, waiting 10-15 turns before committing. Kind of want to play it out just to see if Attila will actually win a tourism victory lol, he is popular with half the world and familiar with the rest.

 
:lol: Soooo many games ruined (or made difficult) because of marble :lol:
Spoiler :
Many of you could have had a capitol that is ten times better if you didn't insist on getting marble in the 3rd ring of it!
 
EASY CV t286 Tradition/Order

Spoiler :
Settled in place, looked fine to me so I didn't go looking for better. Ruins weren't great but I found a culture one after my monument was built so I managed to open Tradition a turn or two early. Built lots of wonders planning CV.

BO: Scout, Scout, Monument, Shrine, and took Earth Mother for Pantheon (was 2nd even with shrine that late and no CS help) thinking that I could establish and hang onto a religion.

4 city tradition as usual. Never played Austria before so didn't know what to do. I gave some thought to building one settler and trying for Petra, but wasn't sure where my food for that city would come from and was afraid to miss Petra.

I had tons of culture this game, from my wonders and from CS allies and friends. A GA helped when I won WF also.

Never built a settler! Just married 3 CS, Kiev, Milan and Brussels in that order. I'd marry them when they were down to 60 influence.

Never built a military unit! Used those from CS and was also given a few from military CS friends. Attila attacked around t 203 and that was my only war. The terrain didn't make Attila's attack that strong and my ally Kyzyl helped as well. I lost a few units but he lost more and soon took a straight peace deal.


Wonders
Spoiler :
In Vienna: HG, MoH, Hagia, Boro, Angkor, Cristo, Eiffel, Globe, Oracle, Sistene, Uffizi, NC, NE, Ironworks, Herm, Kremlin.

Broadway is in Kiev, Brussels has Pisa and Oxford.


I lost IG but still won CV quickly (for me).

Spoiler :
I went into culture quickly this game, taking a few policies in Aesthetics before I could open Rati and get Secl.. Then it was finish Aesth and then take a bunch of policies in Order. A hotel in Vienna really started my tourism rolling.

WF was won easily by a huge amount, but even though I did everything possible to try for IG, Attila was huge by then, and even though at war with 3 civs, (I bribed him twice for almost nothing) he managed to put about 10% more production into IG than did I, so the game took me longer than hoped.

My endgame tourism was only 150, but 5 musicians all averaging about 1300 ended things. 1 from Broadway, 1 build, and 3 bought thank to decent faith. I managed to get the 5th religion and had decent stuff remaining.

I went Order rather than Tradition since I had so MANY mines (5 year plan) and since I felt I could have enough :) to make that Order policy for tourism help. At games end I had 60 :)
 
CV T305 using kb27787's strategy ;)

Spoiler :
Before playing this I peaked into some of the screenshots and I liked the desert + petra option. So I settled Vienna near desert. Then built ToA, HG, Petra and NC all before T100. Settled another 2 cities after that.

Mid game I had a war against France but Graz was very well placed to defend. I also acquired 2 CS which I sold for a good money. One of them was captured by Huns but later liberated. Built a few more early/mid game wonders like HS and Sistine. I had a strong religion going on which I even spread to some CS for quests.

I had a good relationship with everyone but Huns till about T250 when slowly Songhai, Egypt, Ottomans and Huns decided to DoW me and my friends Iroquois. Lost TR, diplomat and open border benefits for tourism. I had to fight them for some time even with some nukes for fun but with the help of a few musicians Songhai (who had the 2nd strongest culture after me) were put in place and the game was over. I guess culture and tourism could have been higher but it was still enough (75K total, Songhai had around 40K)

I have easily won WF and IG; the 1st proposal was +3 culture from wonders.

Policies: Full Trad, Rationalism, Aesthetics, a few in patronage and commerce.
Ideology: Freedom x6
Religion: Pantheon +1 faith from desert; +1 gold for every 4 followers, 15% growth; wonders +2 faith and messiah.




Thanks for the map.
 

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kb27787 said:
Spoiler :
Why you would expand early when there are crucial wonders (i.e. Petra) at stake is beyond me...
It's fine to win with OCC (esp Petra + HG) on immortal, but it's quite vexing to win with a crappy cap :lol:
Starting location is not so bad if you tell yourself "I'll be fine OCC as long as I get Petra"

btw... no oil :lol:
Click to expand...

When you build ToA and the Hanging Gardens, do you just go straight from Archery to Mathematics, or do you find time to research Pottery in between? I'd like to know your tech and build order because I keep on missing the HG when I try for it and I'm wondering if I just take too many detours to get there.
 
GerrardCapashen said:
When you build ToA and the Hanging Gardens, do you just go straight from Archery to Mathematics, or do you find time to research Pottery in between? I'd like to know your tech and build order because I keep on missing the HG when I try for it and I'm wondering if I just take too many detours to get there.
Click to expand...

Pottery (or mining) first... granary is important when you have wheat. Research Archery while that granary is building, THEN you can afford to work some hills while still growing. Writing and library comes next THEN you go for Petra, and HG is just on the way.
 
kb27787 said:
Pottery (or mining) first... granary is important when you have wheat. Research Archery while that granary is building, THEN you can afford to work some hills while still growing. Writing and library comes next THEN you go for Petra, and HG is just on the way.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll try that. Thanks.
 
Spoiler :
I tried the coastal Petra strategy, selling a city to allow cargo ships, and I think it worked reasonably well for me. Maybe it's just chance from one game to another but I was seeing the Hanging Gardens go by about turn 70ish, so I had to really optimize my build order to get it. After a few failed attempts I got ToA on turn 47 and the Gardens on turn 66 with Petra on turn 86. I didn't get my second and third city planted until almost turn 100, and I didn't hit Education until about turn 120.

Vienna is clearly in a great spot once you get Petra and can clear those marshes but the poor tiles early on are difficult to deal with. I used the gold from meeting CSes to buy the stone and the salt tile, but you still have a few turns early on where you can either work a hill or a marsh, neither of which are really optimal for a turn 1 citizen.

I started doing decently well in the Renaissance, but Ramesses sniped the Globe and Uffizi from me. He was also taking up a large part of the map and pumping a lot of culture, so I pretty much gave up on the tourism strategy and just started allying CSes and pumping science. Eventually Egypt, the Maya and the Ottomans all decided to DoW me, but didn't really do anything other than pillage a few of my cargo ships and send two unlucky infantry into my territory. About 5 of my CS allies got conquered, which meant diplomatic victory would have involved a lot of combat to liberate them. I decided to just take the easy way out and go for a science victory.
 

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This was a fun little game. Brutal start. But once it got going it was fun. Diplomatic marriage kind of sucks. I'm barely making back my 800 gp investment in flips.
 
GerrardCapashen said:
Spoiler :
I tried the coastal Petra strategy, selling a city to allow cargo ships, and I think it worked reasonably well for me. Maybe it's just chance from one game to another but I was seeing the Hanging Gardens go by about turn 70ish, so I had to really optimize my build order to get it. After a few failed attempts I got ToA on turn 47 and the Gardens on turn 66 with Petra on turn 86. I didn't get my second and third city planted until almost turn 100, and I didn't hit Education until about turn 120.

Vienna is clearly in a great spot once you get Petra and can clear those marshes but the poor tiles early on are difficult to deal with. I used the gold from meeting CSes to buy the stone and the salt tile, but you still have a few turns early on where you can either work a hill or a marsh, neither of which are really optimal for a turn 1 citizen.

I started doing decently well in the Renaissance, but Ramesses sniped the Globe and Uffizi from me. He was also taking up a large part of the map and pumping a lot of culture, so I pretty much gave up on the tourism strategy and just started allying CSes and pumping science. Eventually Egypt, the Maya and the Ottomans all decided to DoW me, but didn't really do anything other than pillage a few of my cargo ships and send two unlucky infantry into my territory. About 5 of my CS allies got conquered, which meant diplomatic victory would have involved a lot of combat to liberate them. I decided to just take the easy way out and go for a science victory.
Click to expand...

Do you not save your Scientists? Is that seven academies?
 
z284pwr said:
Do you not save your Scientists? Is that seven academies?
Click to expand...

I'm sure he bulbed some; 7 GS is too few for t340+. I had double that amount around t320.
btw who the heck needs to bulb on immortal? Give the AI a chance... :lol:
 
bigwillystyle said:
This was a fun little game. Brutal start. But once it got going it was fun. Diplomatic marriage kind of sucks. I'm barely making back my 800 gp investment in flips.
Click to expand...

Depends on a CS and it's location. For the 1st one I got only like 20gpt but it was a strategic move. However, for the 2nd CS I got around 90GPT + 2 luxes. Pretty sweet deal and this is immortal. I would guess that it is also better to sell it to civs that like to go wide - Iroquois in this game, and they are usually friendly.
 
kb27787 said:
I'm sure he bulbed some; 7 GS is too few for t340+. I had double that amount around t320.
btw who the heck needs to bulb on immortal? Give the AI a chance... :lol:
Click to expand...

Yeah I think I bulbed five or six of them. I wasn't originally planning on going for a science victory or I would have saved more of them. I do have a bad habit of planting too many academies though. I should really not plant more than one or two.
 
kb27787 said:
Pottery (or mining) first... granary is important when you have wheat. Research Archery while that granary is building, THEN you can afford to work some hills while still growing. Writing and library comes next THEN you go for Petra, and HG is just on the way.
Click to expand...

I presume ToA is started while researching writing? Does a shrine fit into the BO as well?
 
No shrine in that BO. It's too tight.

Spoiler :
Goal would be religion via Hagia Sophia, that's how KB did it.

If you feel like being super ballsy, via Stonehenge (but that's a big risk). I started ToA at Archery, saved my chops and switched to SH at the midpoint and got both. Idea was to get a GE via GPP to build Petra, but I missed it by one turn in my game (Petra went at T92, blaaaaaaaaargh)
 
neilkaz said:
I presume ToA is started while researching writing? Does a shrine fit into the BO as well?
Click to expand...

Correct.
Shrine (if you want one) can be built between library and HG but you might have barb problems if you do not get at least an archer. Add to the fact that shrine will be VERY late and you don't really benefit immediately from any faith pantheon at that point, I'd recommend getting archers for CS quest.
 
t184 - meh
Spoiler :
I can't decide If I like or hate this game so far... I have had very little gpt since the early going, and haven't married a single CS, which seems like a waste. I probably should have settled 2 more cities like 60 turns ago since I went Liberty. I have been wonder whoring like crazy, which seems odd. I actually founded the WC and got FP, so 4 votes, which is rare for me. I also proposed +3 culture/wonder, a first.

Nappy went Liberty but just sat in a corner quite a while. I was going to snag an expo 2 NW pf Chartres to get 1-2 Silk and keep him out of my bay, but he DOW'd me and settled Chartres, which has totally screwed my plans. Now I will need a permanent big navy. Because of the awkward location I can't take it, and he's the Mil Leader.

Also, since I have Pyramids I have 4 useless Workers - every time in the past that I have deleted some I soon regretted it.

My cap has horrible food and 3 food Caravans. Salzberg sucks with a Caravan. Graz has Petra and 2 fish, but is also getting a Cargo Ship. I suppose I should do the city/sell trick NE to get Cargo Ships moving more.

Went Liberty, Patronage Open and Consulates, Exploration Open, Rat Open and Secularism, Maritime Infrastructure... I considered just going Aesthetics because 3 of 4 cities have wonders, and that's a huge boost in the middle of the tree.

Attila nearly killed Songhai, not much else happening...
Spoiler :
 

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Nigel_Tufnel2 said:
t184 - meh
Spoiler :
I can't decide If I like or hate this game so far... I have had very little gpt since the early going, and haven't married a single CS, which seems like a waste. I probably should have settled 2 more cities like 60 turns ago since I went Liberty. I have been wonder whoring like crazy, which seems odd. I actually founded the WC and got FP, so 4 votes, which is rare for me. I also proposed +3 culture/wonder, a first.

Nappy went Liberty but just sat in a corner quite a while. I was going to snag an expo 2 NW pf Chartres to get 1-2 Silk and keep him out of my bay, but he DOW'd me and settled Chartres, which has totally screwed my plans. Now I will need a permanent big navy. Because of the awkward location I can't take it, and he's the Mil Leader.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
I think your still in great shape. You have a nice navy and Xbows and all I see is France with some Comp Bows. It doesn't look like France can get in that coastal city but worst case scenario you can always sell it right before he captures it. You probably won't want to do it but get the AI who you sell it to in war with France and get Open Borders and take it back and sell it again.

What are you planning to do with Pisa...GS will get you even more advanced in your tech but I am sure you have other choices as well?

I think your going to hold your position anyway and don't worry about the CS marriage right now. Later in the game when you have more gold and the CS's have more advanced units you can buy them up and go on the Warpath with your instant 20-30 unit Army!!
 
@FA
Spoiler :
I am planning to GE rush Globe and then build Uffizi in my cap. I have Sistine themed, and may jump to the top tree to get Frigates and build Louvre in my Petra city. This game is giving me some firsts - I never understand how folks can get all these mid-game wonders, but I am getting them somehow. I definitely should have gone into Aesthetics - there is still time as my policy rate has been very good, but that means skipping the rest of Rat, which is fine, because it is like cheating on Immortal sometimes!

I'm pretty sure I can take the French city with Frigates - but I have no gpt for upgrades. I bought a lot of tiles early, and can't even upgrade all my CBs. Nappy has had Musketeers for a while, and with his knights moving around he will take it back immediately and I won't be able to raze it (although selling it might be interesting, but hoses me on the Silk). Plus I imagine he has Settlers just out of sight. I had just assumed my planned city spot would be good mid-game because of the water, and I could rotate navy in and out from the N instead of the S channel near his Trebs and range units.
 
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