Fixing Great Person Improvements in BNW

I'll just put it out there. I hate the current great person improvement system. Holy Sites, Academies, blah blah. I don't use them, and I hope they've been improved in Brave New World. But Simplicity2, you say, it just a tradeoff between some faith/tech upfront or more over time. To which I reply, sometimes. If you do it early enough. And you forget about the opportunity cost of removing the land improvement that would have been there without the great person improvement.

See that's the real problem for me. +X science per turn is great, but not if it makes my city terrible for even trying to harvest that X science. Now I have to come up with some way to recover that 2 food in my city. Which will slow city growth, which will slow city production AND science. Either the food squares are plentiful, in which case, the opportunity cost is probably larger, or they are scarce, in which case I can't afford to be working some non-food square. Don't make me tie myself in knots trying to find a solution for something that was supposed to be a benefit.

I think BNW should make EVERY great person improvement give you +2 food in addition to whatever else it gives you. Remove that opportunity cost. You could also make it work like a farm, where it's +1 until Civil Service. That would work too.

Academy and the hammers from the Engineer are always worth it in the early game. Landmarks can be useful when going for Cultural Victory. The rest? Bit underwhelming.

Btw, if you want more replies in your thread, start talking about Venice. I think they will be an OCC-like civ.

Planting your first GS is one of the best and automatic strategies at higher difficulties. The value that an academy provides is very high for your bpt. I had no idea anyone would think otherwise and there's no reason to change this or any landmarks. To work them, you have to get good food tiles and/or maritimes up and have the boost that Tradition provides. Standard stuff and they don't need to change.

Montov said:

Academy and the hammers from the Engineer are always worth it in the early game. Landmarks can be useful when going for Cultural Victory. The rest? Bit underwhelming.

Btw, if you want more replies in your thread, start talking about Venice. I think they will be an OCC-like civ.

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Well, yes but useful right now can be an advantage over useful over time. Especially when useful over time has a cost associated with it as well.

I should have thought to include Venice somehow... Ummm... Perhaps they could build a pigeon UU to "improve" landmarks?

Buccaneer said:

Planting your first GS is one of the best and automatic strategies at higher difficulties. The value that an academy provides is very high for your bpt. I had no idea anyone would think otherwise and there's no reason to change this or any landmarks. To work them, you have to get good food tiles and/or maritimes up and have the boost that Tradition provides. Standard stuff and they don't need to change.

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You need a citizen to work that landmark. Which gives you -2 food in your city/turn. Over 100 turns, you'd lose 200 food, which is enough to take you from a size 1 to size 6.5 city without a granary. Libraries give you +1 science for every two citizens. I'm not saying there's no benefit. But it has a vicious tradeoff that you shouldn't have to make for a "bonus".

Simplicity2 said:

You need a citizen to work that landmark. Which gives you -2 food in your city/turn. Over 100 turns, you'd lose 200 food, which is enough to take you from a size 1 to size 6.5 city without a granary. Libraries give you +1 science for every two citizens. I'm not saying there's no benefit. But it has a vicious tradeoff that you shouldn't have to make for a "bonus".

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By that logic one shouldn't work anything but farm tiles. Work a mine? Sure, you get some production, but you are missing out on potential food. Scientist specialists? But that delays growth! Besides, a lot of the time I'd much rather a smaller, more focused city than a huge happiness gobbling monster city that's only contribution is it can grow quickly.

Also, an academy placed on a grassland tile doesn't consume any food when worked. A citizen needs 2 food a turn, and grasslands provide 2 food a turn, meaning grassland academies are self sufficient. Unless every grassland tile around you is a river tile, you are trading a massive science boost for +1 food per turn. I do tend to save river tiles for farms, though.

triheptyl said:

By that logic one shouldn't work anything but farm tiles. Work a mine? Sure, you get some production, but you are missing out on potential food. Scientist specialists? But that delays growth! Besides, a lot of the time I'd much rather a smaller, more focused city than a huge happiness gobbling monster city that's only contribution is it can grow quickly.

Also, an academy placed on a grassland tile doesn't consume any food when worked. A citizen needs 2 food a turn, and grasslands provide 2 food a turn, meaning grassland academies are self sufficient. Unless every grassland tile around you is a river tile, you are trading a massive science boost for +1 food per turn. I do tend to save river tiles for farms, though.

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A huge, happiness-gobbling science-monster. Also, a lot of the time, that decision is made for you already by the terrain itself. Of course you put farms by the rivers because that gives you extra food where elsewhere would not. And you mine the hills because that's where you can concentrate your production into one non-food producing citizen. The rivers decide where to put farms. The bonus resources tell you where to put other improvements. The rest are the only decisions to make and there you trade off city utility and keeping your citizens from eating that last dude in.

When I click the "give me a tech" or "give me a wonder" button, what tradeoffs do I have to consider? None. I get a big bonus right now, and I can immediately use it, which gives me some amount of turn advantage. Especially as I can tend to focus those towards things of serious utility (lightbulbing Civil Service, for example).

Buccaneer said:

Planting your first GS is one of the best and automatic strategies at higher difficulties. The value that an academy provides is very high for your bpt. I had no idea anyone would think otherwise and there's no reason to change this or any landmarks. To work them, you have to get good food tiles and/or maritimes up and have the boost that Tradition provides. Standard stuff and they don't need to change.

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It depends entirely on when though. I can hardly see anyone except Babylon planting a GS during the classical era. Yes it can be done but that means that either you bee lined everything to place said academy to the detriment of growth (which is gonna bite you in the @ss later) or you lucked out with CS quests and have sever allies and completed the liberty tree.

8 Beakers in the interim of ancient to medieval is a huge thing though. But the price usually is to heavy (certain civs are exceptions).

triheptyl said:

By that logic one shouldn't work anything but farm tiles. Work a mine? Sure, you get some production, but you are missing out on potential food. Scientist specialists? But that delays growth! Besides, a lot of the time I'd much rather a smaller, more focused city than a huge happiness gobbling monster city that's only contribution is it can grow quickly.

Also, an academy placed on a grassland tile doesn't consume any food when worked. A citizen needs 2 food a turn, and grasslands provide 2 food a turn, meaning grassland academies are self sufficient. Unless every grassland tile around you is a river tile, you are trading a massive science boost for +1 food per turn. I do tend to save river tiles for farms, though.

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Growth is a huge factor. I have lost at least 5 games due to the fact that I got outscienced due to my buddy belining the temple of Artemis and hanging gardens with tradition. I was always always having the great library, national college, mountain cities and education around turn 120 and couldn't keep up the pace. He eventually was reaching his cities by 40 or so pop. You cant compete with that.
Now I don't say forgo everything for food, but fast city growth is the catalyst for working more tiles, using specialists and generating science (thereby more production/gold/science).

those Great People improvements are lackluster.

Glassmage said:

those Great People improvements are lackluster.

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I would say depends. With the right scientific research and policies they can be a very good tile improvement. However the earlier you get them the better. There comes a time though where sacrificing them (etc bulbing or golden age) is better than planting.

I honestly use Landmarks, Citadels (which are the best Great Person improvement), and sometimes, very few times, Holy Sites...

When I have an Engineer lying about I prefer to save it until I can build another wonder... I always use my Scientists inmediatly... But alas, I'm most of the times going to a Cultural victory...

Thing is... That I sort of agree... I wish Great Person improvements would have an interesting bonus aside from the static yield, like Citadels...

Like Holy Sites generating more pressure to other civs if built on borders, Custom's Houses connecting the resource they are in (so you could replace camps and others), Academies improving a percentage of food, Manufactories increasing the ammount of strategic resources if built on one...

BUT, Landmarks per se already have something interesting, as they can be built by Archaeologists on digging sites, as a defensive way of saving it for later or if you're not interested on the artifact...

Yes, it depends when. Ancient and Classical are perfect for Academies.

Leugi said:

I honestly use Landmarks, Citadels (which are the best Great Person improvement), and sometimes, very few times, Holy Sites...

When I have an Engineer lying about I prefer to save it until I can build another wonder... I always use my Scientists inmediatly... But alas, I'm most of the times going to a Cultural victory...

Thing is... That I sort of agree... I wish Great Person improvements would have an interesting bonus aside from the static yield, like Citadels...

Like Holy Sites generating more pressure to other civs if built on borders, Custom's Houses connecting the resource they are in (so you could replace camps and others), Academies improving a percentage of food, Manufactories increasing the ammount of strategic resources if built on one...

BUT, Landmarks per se already have something interesting, as they can be built by Archaeologists on digging sites, as a defensive way of saving it for later or if you're not interested on the artifact...

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You know, you're right. I was misusing "landmark" to mean "Great person improvement". Fixed title and post.

I actually think Great Scientists are a problem, but not for exactly the reason the OP gives.

With all the other GP, even the poor Merchant, there's a real choice—a wonder now (which a rival might otherwise get) or more production all game long? Faith or conversions? Culture or Golden Age? The Great Scientist is usually just a math problem: will this Academy produce more science over the course of the rest of the game than I'd get in the next six turns without it? There are occasional exceptions (e.g. I really need to upgrade these Cannons to Artillery right now), but it's generally obvious that it's better to plant the GS, until it's not (and it can sometimes be a nuisance trying to figure out where that tipping point is).

Unless you have very odd terrain around your capital or are terrible at micromanaging your citizens, by the way, an Academy doesn't have to be a drain on your growth. It will cut into either food, gold, or production (because it must replace either a farm, a trading post, or a mine). It doesn't necessarily replace a farm, however, even if you put it on a tile where you'd normally build a farm: you can move a citizen off a forest, hill, etc. to compensate.

I concuur, great people improvement needs some serious bonus. Since they are kinda fine at the early game, I think that a late era technology giving them some kind of bonus would be in order, say, for example:
- Nationalism: GP improvement yields +1 of its output
- Internet: +2 science to GP improvement

That way you would be able to keep GP improvements worthy trought all the game, me thinks.

I don't think using a great person for a tile improvement should be a decision point as it is now. If I put a factory down on a hill and later find coal there... I hate that. GP improvement should act as the resource improvement AND the GP improvement. Should at least hook up resources. The decision should be about lump bonus now or bonus over time... not a second guessing of the city's tiles

GP improvements already do both of those things (improve with techs and hook up resources).

You get HUGE increases in GP outputs as time goes on - especially the Academy, +2 at Scientific Theory and +2 at Nuclear Fission, plus Freedom policy (now tenet) that previously gave +6 and now +4.

Putting an Academy in your capital early on a tile that would otherwise have had a farm = an extra 9 science per turn with NC, scaling with Observatory, University and Research lab, increasing by at least 3, sometimes 4 or 5 with each of those technologies that boosts output? Against a 'faster growth' that means you'd get an extra citizen maybe 5 turns earlier, being VERY generous. Which is +0.5 or +1.5 with a public school.

Worth planting them all the way!

And, again, the only situation in which planting a GS actually, necessarily reduces your growth is one in which every single tile you're working produces 3 food or more. Which is unlikely.

I don't think they need fixing at all. There is always a reason to use the ability or the improvement depending on situation