Civics Improvements Suggestions

Rezca · Sep 27, 2014

Vokarya said:
With the addition of the Warrior Caste civic, should we still keep the +2 XP to new units from the Caste civic? I think the combination is in fact too powerful for the early game. I think we can remove the XP and lower the GP penalty; I think -33% (instead of -50%) would be fair. What do you think?

-33% would be fair I think. Not too high and not too low.
Taking the exp bonus off makes sense too.

I'm still uncertain if Divine Cult is ever worth using, but coupling it with say 'Church' can help relieve some of the lost GPP's from running the former. Running both Divine Cult *and* Caste though? Not unless I've already got my religion's shrine built :lol:

Afforess · Oct 4, 2014

Bringing the topic back to this. I have a done a bit of tweaking to the civics, I am reposting the civics in full so you can compare to my previous post.

Immigration Policy

Restricted Travel
No Upkeep
Description: Citizens are born, live, and die in the same town.
-50% :commerce:

from Foreign Connectedness
-15% :culture:

in all cities

Controlled Borders
Medium Upkeep
Description: Entry to cities and towns are exclusively limited to those of means and wealth.
Requires: Masonry
Cities require 33% more :food:

to grow
+25% more :c5angry:

from population (each 4 pop = +1 anger)
+150% Espionage missions cost inside borders
+1 :c5happy:

from walls, high walls

Free Migration
Low Upkeep
Description: Citizens are free to move and settle anywhere in the realm.
Requires: Aesthetics
+1 :yuck:

in all cities
+1 :c5happy:

in all cities
+10% :culture:

in all cities
Cities require 10% less :food:

to grow

Open Immigration
Low Upkeep
Description: Foreigners and Citizens alike are encouraged to move and settle anywhere in the realm.
Requires: City Planning
+2 :yuck:

in all cities
+1 :c5angry:

in largest cities
+25% :culture:

in all cities
+50% :gp:

Rate
Our culture may spread into any connected foreign cities
-50% Espionage mission cost inside borders
Cities require 33% less :food:

to grow
-1 diplomatic relations with any civilization without open borders

Visa Program
Medium Upkeep
Description: The best and brightest of the world are invited to apply for citizenship to your nation.
Requires: Nationalism
+10% :science:

in all cities
+25% :gp:

Rate

Closed Borders
High Upkeep
Description: Outside travel is closed to all.
Requires: Communism
Cities require 50% more :food:

to grow
+300% Espionage missions cost inside borders
+1 :c5happy:

from walls, high walls
Enemy Units lose 4% health each turn in our territory
Foreign culture decreases in all territory decreases by 1% every 10 turns
+25% defense in all cities
No Foreign Connectedness

triplebassist · Oct 4, 2014

I have a problem with the visa program, actually the same one I have with the atheist religious civic: there doesn't seem to be any downside. While having late game civics be better than early game civics is a good thing, I don't think there should ever be one objectively "best" civic. Two or three options that are arguably as good as each other seems better because it leads to more variety.

Afforess · Oct 5, 2014

triplebassist said:
I have a problem with the visa program, actually the same one I have with the atheist religious civic: there doesn't seem to be any downside. While having late game civics be better than early game civics is a good thing, I don't think there should ever be one objectively "best" civic. Two or three options that are arguably as good as each other seems better because it leads to more variety.

Fundamentally, I agree, civics should have a downside (or at least, an oppertunity cost). However in this specific instance, I think there are 2 downsides, so I disagree with your concern...

Downside 1 is the medium upkeep (all the other "good" immigration civics have low upkeep. At the stage of the game where this civic becomes available, medium upkeep is about 25-75 gold/turn more than low, depending on empire size. That is not tiny.

The second downside is the opportunity cost. You could be running a better civic. If you have excess happiness and excess healthiness, Open Immigration is clearly the best civic.

Arakhor · Oct 5, 2014

So, Controlled Borders loses the culture bonus and makes it more difficult to control larger cities. On the other hand, Closed Borders no longer kills violators on sight. :lol:

<Nexus> · Oct 6, 2014

Afforess said:
Bringing the topic back to this. I have a done a bit of tweaking to the civics, I am reposting the civics in full so you can compare to my previous post.

Immigration Policy

Restricted Travel
No Upkeep
Description: Citizens are born, live, and die in the same town.
-50% from Foreign Connectedness
-15% in all cities

Controlled Borders
Medium Upkeep
Description: Entry to cities and towns are exclusively limited to those of means and wealth.
Requires: Masonry
Cities require 33% more to grow
+25% more from population (each 4 pop = +1 anger)
+150% Espionage missions cost inside borders
+1 from walls, high walls

Free Migration
Low Upkeep
Description: Citizens are free to move and settle anywhere in the realm.
Requires: Aesthetics
+1 in all cities
+1 in all cities
+10% in all cities
Cities require 10% less to grow

Open Immigration
Low Upkeep
Description: Foreigners and Citizens alike are encouraged to move and settle anywhere in the realm.
Requires: City Planning
+2 in all cities
+1 in largest cities
+25% in all cities
+50% Rate
Our culture may spread into any connected foreign cities
-50% Espionage mission cost inside borders
Cities require 33% less to grow
-1 diplomatic relations with any civilization without open borders

Visa Program
Medium Upkeep
Description: The best and brightest of the world are invited to apply for citizenship to your nation.
Requires: Nationalism
+10% in all cities
+25% Rate

Closed Borders
High Upkeep
Description: Outside travel is closed to all.
Requires: Communism
Cities require 50% more to grow
+300% Espionage missions cost inside borders
+1 from walls, high walls
Enemy Units lose 4% health each turn in our territory
Foreign culture decreases in all territory decreases by 1% every 10 turns
+25% defense in all cities
No Foreign Connectedness

I really like it, the effects, bonuses.
I only don't like the restricted travel name, but :assimilate:

A few questions, ideas:

1)
Open Immigration
Our culture may spread into any connected foreign cities
Does it mean, that I can use the "Spread culture" spy action in any connected city once I run OI? How does it actually work?

2)
Closed Borders
Requires: Communism
+1 from walls, high walls
Aren't walls obsolete at that time already? Shouldn't it be Garrison/Military base or Security Bureau instead?

3)
Are you planning civic buildings too? Like "Immigration office" and "Border patrol".

triplebassist · Oct 6, 2014

Afforess said:
Fundamentally, I agree, civics should have a downside (or at least, an oppertunity cost). However in this specific instance, I think there are 2 downsides, so I disagree with your concern...

Downside 1 is the medium upkeep (all the other "good" immigration civics have low upkeep. At the stage of the game where this civic becomes available, medium upkeep is about 25-75 gold/turn more than low, depending on empire size. That is not tiny.

The second downside is the opportunity cost. You could be running a better civic. If you have excess happiness and excess healthiness, Open Immigration is clearly the best civic.

That works for me. I sometimes forget to look at the cost, because it's hard to see what that is until the civics scrren says the difference is 20 gpt for a medium instead of a high.

45°38'N-13°47'E · Oct 10, 2014

So, what if I lower Barter penalties from -33% to -25% or even -20%? Has anyone any opinion on it? I fear that civs switching very early out of barter (i.e. to Slavery) get a huge advantage. I agree that Barter should be a civic that you want to switch out of as soon as possible and never use it again after classical era but that -33% is hurting too much I think. Or I could even make it -15% and maybe give some other penalty like a number of cities limit (higher than the one on Chiefdom anyway, probably twice that value): I don't think a wide empire can be supported under Barter.

P.S. from a quick test it looks like lowering penalties from -33 to -25% is hurting more than helping; in my test game AI is waiting to switch from barter to coinage instead of using slavery.

<Nexus> · Nov 19, 2014

Seeing that Warrior caste civic has no unique icon of its own, I decided to create one in hope you guys will like it.
I think two spartan soldiers make an exelent representation of the civic.
Devs, do you accept my tiny contribution?

45°38'N-13°47'E · Nov 19, 2014

Sogroon said:
Seeing that Warrior caste civic has no unique icon of its own, I decided to create one in hope you guys will like it.
I think two spartan soldiers make an exelent representation of the civic.
Devs, do you accept my tiny contribution?

I like it, I think we can include it. If other team members agree, probably either me or Vokarya will include it in one of the next revisions.
By the way, I'm working on that piracy promotion. Would you be able and willing to create a Piracy promotion icon? I'm not yet sure I'll include that promotion (and if I'm able to make it work as intended), but if you or someone else is willing to contribute with the icon, I can spend more time on coding.

<Nexus> · Nov 19, 2014

45°38'N-13°47'E;13567926 said:
I like it, I think we can include it. If other team members agree, probably either me or Vokarya will include it in one of the next revisions.
By the way, I'm working on that piracy promotion. Would you be able and willing to create a Piracy promotion icon? I'm not yet sure I'll include that promotion (and if I'm able to make it work as intended), but if you or someone else is willing to contribute with the icon, I can spend more time on coding.

Sure! I am honored to be of help

I think this flag with the regular blue background would be just fine, isn't it?

45°38'N-13°47'E · Nov 19, 2014

Sogroon said:
Sure! I am honored to be of help

I think this flag with the regular blue background would be just fine, isn't it?

I was thinking of something like that since that's the first image that pops up when you google pirate

. But I leave it up to you anyway. Thank you Sogroon

<Nexus> · Nov 19, 2014

Yes, it is the first pic

but I also prefer the swords over the bones for some reason

Vokarya · Nov 19, 2014

As far as the image for Warrior Caste goes, I think I'd like something with more contrast. The Spartans image looks like just red, which is hard to understand. I went looking through the mods I have and picked out a few other options that I think might look a little better.

Iron Weapons from VIP:
View attachment 386077

Military State from Fall from Heaven 2:
View attachment 386078

Subjugation from Rhye's and Fall:
View attachment 386079

Unyielding Order from Fall from Heaven 2:
View attachment 386080

Warfare from Stone Age:
View attachment 386081

I think I like Subjugation or Warfare the best. What do you think?

Afforess · Nov 20, 2014

I vote subjugation. Icons are small images, so the larger sword stands out better.

Rezca · Nov 20, 2014

Warfare and Subjugation I like

Either one's fine

<Nexus> · Nov 20, 2014

Vokarya said:
As far as the image for Warrior Caste goes, I think I'd like something with more contrast. The Spartans image looks like just red, which is hard to understand. I went looking through the mods I have and picked out a few other options that I think might look a little better.

I think not this would be the first icon that is small/dark/hard to understand IMO, but you are the devs

So if it is this five only to vote for, than Subjugation or Warfare.

Piracy icon

I have created two versions, one with a blue and one with a black background.
Personally I prefer the black one, because it is more pirate-ish and it is also different then the other promotions, so I would like to know when it is possible and not to miss it or pick it non-intently. So start voting: blue, black or something else

45°38'N-13°47'E · Nov 20, 2014

Well, I also prefer Subjugation icon if we have to choose. About Piracy icon, obviously I prefer the black one but I'm not sure if it fits with other icons. I'll think about it (and of course I need to test if my code works before adding piracy promotion).

<Nexus> · Nov 20, 2014

AFAIK a regular unit can have many colors in promotions.
Blue is regular
Green by warlord
Purple by warlord
Grey by events
Colored in modern/trans-human era

So IMO a black (dark grey) icon does fit; what really matters is functionality and personal taste

Arakhor · Nov 20, 2014

You played Stone Age too, Vokarya? El Triturador’s mod was my absolute favourite, besides RoM, of course.

Subjugation’s sword is the clearest by far, but the icon for Warfare is quite pretty too. The black pirate logo is a lot better than the blue one: the blue is just too jarring, I think.

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