Military Research

I've seen a lot of Ideas about unit workshops, gradual upgrades, transitions units, and military funding concepts floating arround, and I think I've found an Idea that could add much flavor to the game. The way this would work is, we would have the standard tech tree, (with or without ages) and all the technologies that come with it. Now, each technology which has military applications would have a number of optional sub-techs attached to it, which may be researched separatley from other scientific goals. Each of these sub-technologies would be researched based on a "military funding" slider.

For example:

Technology: Warrior Code
Cost: 30 Science (Just Inserting a Number)
Allows: Archer 2.1.1
-Sub-Technology: Composite Bow
-Cost: 5 science
-Allows: Composite Bowman 3(3).1.1 [<-The bombard being defensive only]

We could then go on to allow sub-techs to interact and combine with other technologies in order to produce other more "innovative" units.

Ex:
Horseback Riding: Allows Horseman 2.1.2
-Sub-Techs:
Armored Cavalry: Allows Cathrapact(or other heavy cav.) 2.2.2
-(W/Composite Bow) Horse Archery: Allows Mounter Archer 3(3).1.2
--With Armored Cav.: Heavy Horse Archer 3(3)2.2

With this, once could sacrafice some of their science speed to strengthen their armies, or ignore their armed fources in favor of faster advancement. The key concepts that would meke these technologies worth-while is:
A) Because they can be researched alongside civil technologies, you can balance your progress in both fields,
B) The military techs would be relatively cheep (Compared to standard technology) so they would often be a worthwhile investment.
C) In relation to B, a fully upgraded, but primative, army could be nearly as powerfull as an under-funded, but more advanced army. This would give the underdog more oportunities to stay in the game.
D) It helps to sort out people complaints about going from a Medevil Knight to Napoleonic Cavalry, or a Lancaster to a B-2 Stealth bomber, with no in-between units.

So, what do you all think?

have you ever played alpha centauri?that has an excellent workshop system with very very few predesignned units,i think that would be what you want without complexity

you can get a demo and theres a free xpack downloadable somewhere,but i cant find it now.the xpack has the full game so if you get that your set

Actually, I've played the SMAC demo. I'm quite fond of it's workshop system, but that has already been discussed here so many times. My Idea is something Unique and new (I hope) that might be able to add something to the game.

Sounds like a good idea Yuri

WOW!!! this is great!!!

Why thank you Ybbor, would anyone like to elaborate on their oppinons, or submit Ideas for other sub-techs?

Annother point that I've thought up recently:
Nations could be required to research their UU from a sub-tech rather than simple reiciving it with the advance (To show that it took time for nations to develop their specialties)
Example:
Rome Researches: "Gladius" or "Formations/Leigon Tactics"
Allows: Leigon (3.3.1, or whatever it's stat is in Civ4)

Their UU could then recieve culminative Benefits from each sub-tech Upgrade. Ie, Rome's Leigon gets +1 Defense over normal swordsmen, and then recives further benefits from techs like "Tower shield" or "Broadswords" (which are availible to all Civs) So the Roman Leigon will always have an edge over other nation's swords.

If I read your idea right, it sounds a great deal like the research system for 'Hearts of Iron'. In that game, you had theoretical and applied research, with the former opening into the latter! If that IS the right way to read your idea, then I DO like it!
In fact, though, I think this idea could be broadened beyond just military techs. I have long dreamed of a fairly 'streamlined' tech tree, but where certain techs acted as 'gateways' to whole new branches-branches which you could either ignore, or which you could pursue at the expense, somewhat, of the broader 'trunk' of the tech tree!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

This still doesn't prevent people shotguning to a military advance. A beefed up pikeman is still no match for calvary.

Actually here could be a offshot that allows custom units and requires side research. It is basically the system from C-evo, but most have not played C-evo so here is summary.

Most reserach offers improved quotients for attack,defence values. It also eventually allows you to make different speed units or add special abilities. However, unlike SMAC, you could not design at any time you want. Instead, you would have to choose 'military research' whenever done with yoru current research. You would then deesign the unit and have to wait for research to be done. This meant that upgradeing yoru military took valuable research time. I would remove the crude quotient system used in C-0evo and make a more reasonable and useful one.

Well, the best way to prevent bee-lining, though, is via a 'semi-blind' research system. In this system, if you have obtained a gateway tech, then you are somewhat MORE likely to obtain techs from the branch it opens up to than the techs on the main trunk. Thats not to say that you won't get techs from the trunk of the tech tree anymore, just that you might get 1 for every two branch-techs you get, on average.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

This first idea is decent, but it's not really applicable very often in the ancient age, because nothing then is close to perfect. A new idea is often so much better that it's a new tech in itself (bows, swords, horse-riding, etc...)

Also the Medieval Longbowman represents Composite Bow, like the Rifleman represents more modern means of obtaining gunpowder and machining parts to specification. It'd have to be careful not to jump into the next age, but give a more limited advantage.

For the modern era, your idea is sound. It's called re-capitalization. An older, proven product gets re-examined, and slightly modified, or updated. Not exactly Musketman to Rifleman, but more like putting +2/+2 to the OFF/DEF of Modern Armor.

For the Ancient era, it'd be better for representing tactical rather than technical improvements. Such as using your archer better or with shield-bearers, or using your Swordsman in controlled formations rather than in loose groups. Under the current system, it might only mean an extra hit point(s), rather than a change to OFF/DEF, since +1 is a whole another unit type in the Ancients era.

For the Medieval era, it'd be somewhere in-between.

Each of these sub-technologies would be researched based on a "military funding" slider.

For example:

Technology: Warrior Code
Cost: 30 Science (Just Inserting a Number)
Allows: Archer 2.1.1
-Sub-Technology: Composite Bow
-Cost: 5 science
-Allows: Composite Bowman 3(3).1.1 [<-The bombard being defensive only]

We could then go on to allow sub-techs to interact and combine with other technologies in order to produce other more "innovative" units.

Click to expand...

Allowing this military 're-design' to make a nested tech-tree is a very bad idea since it overcomplicates the tech tree. For eloquence, it's better to re-design your main tech-tree first, and use unit refinements like your idea, second. Basically an over-complicated tech tree isn't fun to navigate.

I voted for excellent idea, and I would like to add a suggestion:

Let's say, you currently have swordmen (3/2/1 in standard game?) at a cost of 30, IIRC.
Now, the next tech could offer one of the mentioned side-paths, but now leading not to a swordman with 3/3/1, but to one 3/2/1 with LESS costs (as your nation now is expected to have some experiences in training and equipping those formations, thus reducing the total costs of them)

Something that has been interesting to see is how well a new unit performs when fielded for the first time. Usually, there is an extensive training and practice regimen employed by armies today, because during ancient and medieval and even into the Napoleonic eras, the brand-new tactics and technologies still had a bug or two to be worked out. Notable exceptions include the P-51 Mustang, and the use of helicopters as troop transports during the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley, but notable examples include the battle of the Merrimac and Monitor, trench warfare of WWI, and the use of snipers by the British during the French and Indian War. Is there an effective way to model the "we haven't drilled properly yet" effect without overly complicating things? Maybe everyone's first attempt to attack with cavalry should really stink unless they've had significant barracks time or something.

The only concern to me is that this idea is too complicated for civ. Too complicated meaning that the game usually advance far too fast for the specialized untis to have an effect.
Solution to this: a certain percentage of the techs of each sub-tech needs to be researched or semi-blind research as above suggested.
But this allows the beeline to a better unit!
Solution. We have several ages. Each age has one attack unit (with resources) and one attack unit (without resources), one fast, etc. .. . Meaning, that the current middle ages are cut into two, thus no beeline to cavalry is possible, because first, other techs need to be researched, and the specialized units come really into power.

mfG mitsho

Good idea Yuri2356. I did something a bit similar a while ago, but nobody commented . You did a on making a unique feeling of the unitnames. I really feel that civIII misses that apart from the civ unique units.

The link is here, so you can see or if anyone else is interested:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110084

The thread has a subpart of unitupgrades, but is mostly about tech lvls, hence the title.

Btw this could be a feature which could be turned off at startup.

Aks K

This is strange...

I was going to suggest exactly similar idea!

Even the sub-tech name was similar in toughts.

It could be also something like this: You advance horseback riding, but you just go forward in the tech tree. Then you advance chivalry but you havn't advaced the cataprhact sub-tech, so you get less heavily armored knights.

Instead of using your whole civ's reasearch to obtain these minor improvements, have a selectable amount of city's (With a minimum of one library in each city) pool there resources seperately from the rest and into a minor advance pool for individual unit upgrade. When it filled up you get the minor (usually a bonus) advance for a individual unit .