RB4 - Desert Runner

[Kylearan]

This is the fourth succession game following the Realms Beyond rules, this time exploring the oasis map.

Leader: Cyrus of Persia (exp/cre)
Difficulty: Monarch
World Size: Standard
Map Script: Oasis (standard)
Opponents: Six
Victory Conditions: All enabled

Roster:
Kylearan
jameson
Snaproll
hiob
dopplex
Zeviz

You have 24 hours to post a "got it", and another 48 hours to complete your turns. This is not a strict rule; if you need more time then this won't be a problem, but please say so in the given timeframe and keep us updated on your progress.



-Kylearan

[jameson]

Checking in . Animal Husbandry seems the way to go for tech.
I assume we popped a map at the start ?

[Kylearan]

Founding Persepolis had explored a tribal village which has given us maps, so we can see a bit more of our surroundings. (In hindsight, I should have explored the village with our scout before founding the city, so that the scout might have received xp which I find very valuable early on. )

We have pigs in our initial 21 tiles, which isn't the best of starts...especially because we are expansive and won't need the health bonus anyway. Apart from that, we're on a river, have a nice mixture of a floodplain, some flat grasslands, and several hills around us, plus a lot of forests. Deserts can be seen to the north, so I guess we are on the south side of the map.

We start the game with hunting and agriculture. I won't be able to play my initial turns until Monday or even Tuesday, so let's discuss our options for our opening strategy...

a) We can go for an early religion. We will work the floodplain in the beginning which gives us a commerce, so a "non-spiritual hinduism gambit(tm)" could be tried. In my experience, emphasizing commerce and going for mysticism -> polytheism works 80% of the time on Monarch. This would probably involve creating an early great prophet for the shrine, and building an army of missionaries later. Downside would be that we won't have access to worker techs immediately, and of course that the gambit might fail.

b) Or we could research all the worker techs first to make our capital an early powerhouse. We would then wait and see which of the AIs convert to which religion, carefully choosing sides and making some allies.

c) Or, given that we are expansive (+2 health), have a pig resource near us, and are surrounded by a lot of forests, we could go for mining -> bronze working first, while immediately building a worker (instead of a scout and a warrior). Then, we could chop most of our forests to speed up the production of two ultra-early settlers and/or a wonder. Normally, I'm a bit weary of removing precious forests because you also throw away production, but we have several hills around us which might compensate for this. Downside would be that our capital will lack improvements for some time.


Opinions?

-Kylearan

[Sirian]

I see you chose to start in the South, with a civ who has a Horse-requisite Unique Unit. Deliberate handicap or accidental?

Pigs, Deer and Corn all in visible range. Looks like good fun!


- Sirian

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Sirian

I see you chose to start in the South, with a civ who has a Horse-requisite Unique Unit. Deliberate handicap or accidental?

Accidental. I swapped team number with the first AI to get a random start as you've suggested in the map guide. And in my (limited) experience, the UUs aren't as important as they had been in Civ 3, so having to, uh, "earn" us some horses might be fun.

By the way, is there a special reason why seven civs is standard for standard-sized maps? Why not eight?

-Kylearan

[Snaproll]

A few thoughts,

Persia has agriculture at the start, so our workers aren't totally useless even if we don't go for worker techs right at the start. I think that we should grab a religion while working on our first worker, and then irrigate the flood plain as soon as mossible, then after we (hopefully) get hinduism we should knock out mining 2nd and animal husbandry third. This will combine two of our goals that Ky spelled out (early religion and a strong(ish) first city.

I would be completely open to strategy 3, however - that one is the most focused on utilizing our expansive trait, which follows the old adage of "exploting your advantages". It would be an interesting switch from the seemingly usual hinduism gambit. Is it true that in multiplayer the ability to chop forests is considered the strongest opening move?

[jameson]

I thought I'd quote the map reference here just to have it handy:

Oasis
Regional Map: No world wrap
Land-Heavy Map: 52 plots wide, 32 plots tall, at "Standard" map size
Neutral Zone: Nobody ever starts in the desert region in the middle of the map.
Teams Alternate: Lowest team number starts in the south, next in the north, etc.
Assymetrical: The south gets more arable land but fewer resources.
Nile-Style Rivers: There are always four rivers, running randomly from south to north.

Resources Anywhere: Cow, Coal, Copper, Uranium
Southern Resources: Dye, Fur, Gems, Silk (rare!), Sugar, Banana, Deer, Pig, Rice
Northern Resources: Horses, Marble, Fur, Silver, Spices, Wine, Sheep, Wheat, and seafoods.
Oasis-Region: Aluminum, Corn (abundant!), Iron, Oil, Stone, Gold, Incense, Ivory

In Single Player: You will always start in the south, unless you use the Advanced options and swap your team number with the first AI listed (or similar action).

From the looks of it, we can forget about the marble wonders unless we chop heavily (the Oracle could be a candidate for that). Stonehenge does nothing that our Creative trait doesn't do. I hadn't noticed horses would be out for us, so chances are we'll never build our UU at all (and animal husbandry somewhat less of a priority)

I would prefer to build 1-2 scouts first while going for the worker techs. On the downside, happiness could become a bit of an issue.

[Sirian]

Originally Posted by Kylearan

I swapped team number with the first AI to get a random start as you've suggested in the map guide.

That shouldn't give you a random start. (It's impossible to get a random start, actually. Your team number is supposed to choose for you!) Sadly, after looking at it, I see that something got broken after the last time I had tested this script. (The problem is not in the script, per se.)

Currently, in single player it is impossible to start in the north, as intended.

Sorry about that! I've reported it, now, but it will be until the next patch before this could be fixed!


Anyway, the South is where you are, and the only region in which you could possibly start at the moment, so make the most of it.


- Sirian

[Kylearan]

Hi,

Originally Posted by Sirian

That shouldn't give you a random start. [...] Currently, in single player it is impossible to start in the north, as intended. Sorry about that!

I didn't know that, so to me it sure looks like a random start! Don't worry, I'm sure we will have a lot of fun the way it is.

-Kylearan

[Zeviz]

I am here.

Looking at the map, I notice that we have many forest hills around our capital. This can make worker-chops particularly good, because a mined hill is better than a forested hill, so we'll have to clear all those forested hills anyway. I count at least 7 forested hills on the map, so that should give us enough chopping material.

If we'll be making early settlers, we'll need several scouts to find good city locations (preferably grabbing as many resources and as much territory as we can, especially with our creative trait guaranteeing fast border expansions). So my suggestion would be to build 1 or 2 scouts while researching bronze-working and then go for a worker and get some settlers, chopping only on the hills.

As for religion, there are some benefits of not getting an early religion: for a peaceful civ, no religion means no relationship penalties with any neighbors; for a militant civ, it's better to focus on military techs and steal a holy city from one of the neighbors.

So I guess my suggestion for overall tech path would be to start with bronze working (but chop only on the hills) and continue with dual-duty technologies: research animal husbandry (build pastures and reveal ivory) and iron working (chop jungle and reveal iron) and send one or two scouts into the desert to look for important resources. If they find anything good, we can send our third settler in that direction, to grab strategic resources.

[Merzbow]

Originally Posted by jameson

I thought I'd quote the map reference here just to have it handy.

There's a map reference? Never knew this... doesn't seem to be in the pedia. Where is this info?

[jameson]

Weird, I thought it was stickied in the General forum but it's no longer there.
Here's an HTML version.

[Sirian]

Originally Posted by jameson

Weird, I thought it was stickied in the General forum but it's no longer there.

They decided to un-sticky it.


- Sirian

[dopplex]

Checking in, will have a chance to take a look at our start later tonight!

[dopplex]

After having had a few moments to look at the map, I find myself agreeing with Zeviz - we seem to be in very good position to choprush some settlers and get some expansion done quickly. With creative, fast cities + fast border expansion could give us a nice territory advantage.

We're in the South - we should find out how far from the edge we are. If we can seal off the southern edge, that's a border we don't have to worry about defending. Even better if we're in the corner, and we can rely on two of our borders being secure.

I'm worried about the risk of going for an early religion without Mysticism - we may get it 2 out of 3 times, but that 1 out of 3 seems an awful lot to gamble our start on (Especially if Isabella is on a lake somewhere else on the map!).

[Kylearan]

It's my opinion as well that we should use the forests to our advantage, so the mining -> bronze working route it is. According to the map guide, some critical resources are in the middle of the map (iron, for example!), so getting IW soonish and having some scouts to find these resources would be another priority.

My scouts are especially lucky today! Another two maps and xp, and two techs, The Wheel and Animal Husbandry! That's very nice, especially that we got more worker techs.

I sent the first scout eastwards, to make contact with our neighbours. I find Louis XIV and Victoria. And good thing we didn't go for an early religion! Hinduism gets founded in 3520BC, and Louis founds Buddhism in 3360BC!

Our second scout I sent north, to look for potential city sites, and to cross the desert eventually. I've invested three turns into a warrior (to let our capital grow to size three), then started our worker. After the worker, the warrior should be finished for protection, but he can also be used to scout the lands to the south.

I suggest using the worker to chop forests on hills only, as there are enough of them near us. It would be nice if we could keep some of the flatland forests.
After the warrior, either build a second one for settler protection (animals are roaming around) and then the settler, or build the settler first and use our first warrior to protect it.

Our eastern scout had killed a lion and is healing at the moment.



Roster:
Kylearan -> just played
jameson -> UP NOW
Snaproll -> on deck
hiob
dopplex
Zeviz

The next player can play 20 turns, then it's 10 turns per player from then on.

-Kylearan

[jameson]

Got it, will play later today. Yay for goody huts, er, "tribal villages" !

[Snaproll]

Two techs from huts! What a great start!

[jameson]

Plans for the turn, get started on expansion, do some scouting,

IHT: Not much to do

3160 BC (2) Pop another hut and the Northern scout gets experienced too.

3120 BC (3) Bronze Working comes in, I decide to go for Pottery next. We can now switch to slavery, but there doesn't seem to be much of a point to that yet. We have copper in Persepolis's range ! Our scout becomes a Woodsman now he's nearing the northern region.

3000 BC (6) Meet Gandhi to our West. Northern scout pops a hut for 41 gold and meets the Greeks. Persepolis finishes worker, I decide to let the warrior finish first so it can start building the settler at size 4. Worker will start to pasturize the pigs as I think that's the most efficient in terms of extra output per worker turn (+3 food in 4 worker turns).

2960 BC (7) Eastern scout uncovers the edges of the map, will start to double back for exploration nearer the capital.

2920 BC (8) Our hut luck continues



2880 BC (9) Quatorze (XIV) comes offering Open Borders, I see no reason to decline.

2800 BC (11) Meet Peter the Great to the Northwest

2760 BC (12) Pottery comes in, go for Archery next. The time for Barbarians appearing is near, so we'll have to send proper escorts. Warrior is finished, settler is next. Worker starts chopping NW forest hill, warrior is sent North along the river to clear the fog for the upcoming settler.

2680 BC (14) Southern Scout on defense defeats panther without a scratch. Got to love that woodsman promotion !

2600 BC (16) Chop is done, worker starts mining Copper.

2520 BC (18) Archery comes in, mysticism started. We have no use for Masonry yet. Warrior arrives at where I think the next city should go and fortifies. We have full LOS over the path the settler should take.

2480 BC (19) Settler finishes, Archer started.

2440 BC (20) Pop another hut for xp, our Southern scout is now level 3 (I suggest a combat promotion). Settler will found next turn. On hindsight, maybe it was better to send him West but I didn't spot the cow bonus at first.

Re the Scouts, I should probably have sent one to the NE instead, our scout in the North could probably do that job now. Alternatively, double the Southern scout back again and create a new one (or an extra archer) to investigate our immediate scoutings a bit more closely. On the bright side though, the scout did pick up a rather expensive tech, so sometimes it's better to be lucky than, well...

Here's a map of our lands, warrior is at suggested city spot.



And here's the save.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

a third tech from a hut?!?

Originally Posted by jameson

[scout] ...create a new one (or an extra archer)

I'd prefer to build an archer instead of a scout. I don't expect our scouts to be able to survive long, now that barbarians will surely appear.

Roster
Kylearan
jameson -> just played
Snaproll -> UP NOW
hiob -> on deck
dopplex
Zeviz

-Kylearan